So I want to talk about the Mormons

[Stoked]

When I'm wrong, I learn something. That is fun.

If mellow says he has a certain skin color, I'm not going to say he's lying. Why would he bother?

His skin color has nothing to do with who is in his life and who is important to him. In my family there are blacks, whites, hispanics and an asian. Me being white had no effect on that.

 

[Stoked]

Many people find it more productive than counter-productive.

Because it accomplishes want they want. They want seperation.

 

[One Brow]

His skin color has nothing to do with who is in his life and who is important to him. In my family there are blacks, whites, hispanics and an asian. Me being white had no effect on that.

You really think your skin color has no effect on how others see you? It's affected everything, right from the start, including your ability to deny it has any effect.

Because it accomplishes want they want. They want seperation.

That's an odd way to spell "recognition".

 

[colton]

Even today, among religious people whose only book is the KJV, I hear anachronisms like "thee" and "thou" when they are trying to evoke Scriptural authority or make paraphrases of Scripture. Since the KJV was the only widely published Bible (AFAIK) in the US at the time, it would have been what Smith thought of as religious literature. When dictating religious literature, it's usage is what he would have gone to. This is true whether his translations (you just said he had significant personal flexibility in the translation process) were real, hallucinatory, or faked; he used what he thought of as religious language. I'm not sure why you think this is controversial.

Several points:
(a) not all of the items I listed are found in the KJV.
(b) some of those are found, but were not recognized until well after Smith. Chiasmus is probably the most cited example of this.
(c) there's a wide gulf between simple word substitutions like thee/thou and being able to properly using idioms, especially ones that you don't even consciously know about. I'm fairly fluent in German, having lived 7 years of my life in Germany and Austria, but even though I could easily write a book in English using periodic German vocabulary words properly, I don't think there's any way I could write a book in English that contains dozens of properly-used Germanic idioms.
(d) many people in Joseph Smith's day pointed to these idioms as evidence the book was NOT from God, because of all of the English language errors they created. So it wasn't apparent to those people (who would have had the same background as Smith) that this was "automatically proper scriptural language".

Sorry. I'm take it the LDS today think divining rods are nothing but superstition?

Safe bet.

 

[Siro]

Is this the "ask a Mormon" thread? In that case, I have a question for Colton or anyone else with enough scientific knowledge to give a meaningful answer.

How do you understand the Mormon belief of timelessness before the fall? How would you describe it from a physics stand point? I've always been curious about this.

 

[Archie Moses]

How do you understand the Mormon belief of timelessness before the fall? How would you describe it from a physics stand point? I've always been curious about this.

That's actually a really good question. Never thought about that.

 

[colton]

Is this the "ask a Mormon" thread? In that case, I have a question for Colton or anyone else with enough scientific knowledge to give a meaningful answer.

How do you understand the Mormon belief of timelessness before the fall? How would you describe it from a physics stand point? I've always been curious about this.

This isn't the "Official Ask a Mormon thread" (that is here: https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?15752-The-Official-quot-Ask-A-Mormon-quot-Thread), but that's OK. I don't mind giving you my 2 bits.

Just my own view here, because I don't think there have been any authoritative statements on the topic. I believe that timelessness is a function of what in scriptures is called "eternity". I view it much like C.S. Lewis's description--he talked about God standing "outside" of time, looking at the universe (all of space & time) much like a person can stand above a table and see an entire jigsaw puzzle all at once. I believe that is from Lewis's "Mere Christianity" book. I think we were that same way prior to our birth and will be that same way again after the resurrection. That's how I interpret the scripture in Alma 40:8, "all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men".

 

[bigb]

Before this last question from Siro, this thread had turned to ****.

 

[Siro]

This isn't the "Official Ask a Mormon thread" (that is here: https://jazzfanz.com/showthread.php?15752-The-Official-quot-Ask-A-Mormon-quot-Thread), but that's OK. I don't mind giving you my 2 bits.

Just my own view here, because I don't think there have been any authoritative statements on the topic. I believe that timelessness is a function of what in scriptures is called "eternity". I view it much like C.S. Lewis's description--he talked about God standing "outside" of time, looking at the universe (all of space & time) much like a person can stand above a table and see an entire jigsaw puzzle all at once. I believe that is from Lewis's "Mere Christianity" book. I think we were that same way prior to our birth and will be that same way again after the resurrection. That's how I interpret the scripture in Alma 40:8, "all is as one day with God, and time only is measured unto men".

I'm surprised by that answer. It just begs more questions. Keep in mind that I'm just looking for informed speculation from someone who is versed in both subjects (Mormonism and physics).

- Are you in the deterministic quantum mechanics camp? If so, what interpretation do you favor? Hidden variables? If not, how do you understand the statement about God seeing all of space and time?

- I always thought Mormons, like most Judeo-Christian-Muslim believers, saw God as human-like in some way (they say that we are made in his image for example). But you're implying that God does not experience, at least not in any meaningful definition of experience. He exists in a state that cannot be compared to any conscious human-like entity. Is that right? Or have I misunderstood?

- If I understood correctly, you're also saying that human existence in heaven is in no way analogous to experience on earth? It isn't sequential? It is, in a way, the end of existence? Are there no more possibilities at that point (since humans will live across all space and time at once)?

 

[franklin]

OK, Franklin, I'll help you out. You mention Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon in your O.P. I also think that is a fascinating subject. Here's a list I compiled from a few different sources many years ago. (If I recall correctly the single largest source was Dr. John Tvedtnes of BYU who has written several papers on the topic if you want to google them.) Any one of them could be overlooked, but taken as a whole I think it's pretty convincing evidence of the Hebrew nature of the source text.

(Partial) List of Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon

* [adjective] above all - 1 Ne 2:20 - Instead of using comparative words like “brighter” or “brightest”, the Hebrew idiom is used: “bright from [something else]” or “bright above all”. This example reads “choice above all”. See also 1 Ne 11:9, Alma 32:42, 39:5, Mosiah 1:11.
* and/but - 2 Ne 1:20 vs. 2 Ne 4:4 - “And” also can mean “but” in Hebrew. In these two passages, the identical phrase is quoted, with “but” used in one and “and” in the other. See also Moroni 9:4 & 3 Ne 20:1 where “and” is used but “but” would make more sense.
* and/now - 2 Ne 5:15 - “And” is used much more commonly than in English. In this example we read “in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass...” instead of “... wood, iron, copper, brass...” And is also used frequently at the beginning of a sentence, even when the sentence doesn’t link with the previous one. See also Alma 43:16-20.
* and also - Jacob 4:5 - “and also” is one word in Hebrew. In English you would say “... and we also worship...”, not “... and also we worship...” as it reads here. See also Mosiah 27:8, 27:14, 27:21.
* and his - 1 Nephi 2:4 - Hebrew cannot say “his house and family and friends,” since possessive pronouns are usually suffixes of the noun. One must say “his house and his family and his friends.” See also 1 Ne 3:22, 10:6, 13:36, 3 Ne 9:10, Mosiah 24:22.
* before the face/before the presence - 1 Nephi 4:28 - in this example “fled from before my presence” is used idiomatically instead of “fled from me”. See also 1 Ne 11:12, 11:29.
* by the hand of - Mosiah 17:18 - Compound prepositions (prep + noun) are used idiomatically instead of the preposition alone. In this case the meaning is an action performed by somebody: “by the hand of your enemies” instead of “by your enemies.” Other examples are Alma 10:3 and Alma 10:4.
* by the mouth of - Alma 13:22 - Similar to “by the hand of” this is used to indicate speech by somebody: “words which have been spoken by the mouth of all the prophets,” instead of “...spoken by the prophets.” Another example is 1 Ne 3:20.
* cursed with a sore cursing, did judge righteous judgments, have dreamed a dream - The Hebrew “cognate accusative” consists of a verb immediately followed by a noun derived from the same root, for emphasis. Some examples are Jacob 3:3, Mosiah 7:15, 11:10, 23:5, 29:43, 1 Nephi 3:2, 8:2, 14:7, 2 Ne 1:22, 5:15. One interesting Biblical example is Gen 1:11, where it is translated “let the earth bring forth grass” but literally reads “let the earth grass grass.”
* did call the name - 1 Ne 16:13 - an idiom used instead of “the [person/place] was called.” This example reads: “we did call the name of the place Shazer.” See also Alma 50:13-14, Mosiah 1:2, Alma 23:17.
* good eye/single eye - 3 Ne 13:22-23, Mormon 8:14-15 - The Hebrew idiom “good eye” (translated in King James Bible as “single eye” means “generous”, the opposite of “stingy”. The Book of Mormon uses the idiom correctly both in the Sermon on the Mount (3rd Nephi) and in Mormon.
* he said in his heart - a Hebrew idiom for “he thought”.
* head - Jacob 1:4 - a Hebrew word meaning “chief”.
* how much more - 2 Nephi 31:5 - One of the Hebrew rules for understanding the scriptures is called “Kal v’khomer”. This is a logical argument expressed like this:
1. If X is true of Y
2. then how much more X must be true of Z
3. (where Z is of greater weight than Y)
The example listed in 2 Nephi above reads thusly:
1. If Christ needed to be baptized
2. then how much more do we need to be baptized
3. (since he is holy and we are unholy)
Other examples are 1 Ne 3:31, 4:1, 7:8-12, 17:51, Mosiah 4:22, Alma 32:18-19, 3 Ne 13:26, 14:11
* if/and - instead of if/then. For examples see original text of Helamen 12.
* in/to - 1 Ne 17:14 - two prepositions corresponding to “in” and “to” can be interchanged with little difference: “after ye have arrived to the promised land,” is used here instead of “...in the promised land.”
* isle of the sea - 2 Ne 10:20 - the Hebrew word mean “coastal land” but is often translated in the Bible as “island”.
* mist of darkness, plates of brass, rod of iron, land of promise - The Hebrew “construct state” requires the adjective to be placed after the noun, so we see these instead of dark mists, brass plates, iron rod, or promised land. See for example: Jacob 5:2, 4:8, 2 Ne 10:8, 9:25, Moroni 8:20.
* ...now Zoram was the name of the servant... - 1 Ne 4:35 - In English you would say “there was a man named so and so”; in Hebrew the narration is often broken by a parenthetical remark such as in this case. See also Alma 1:15.
* that - in introducing subordinate clauses, the word “that” is often used in Hebrew where it wouldn’t be in English: “because that my heart is broken”, “because that they are redeemed from the fall, after that I had been lifted up on the cross”, “after that I had gone to the father.” Other examples existed which have since been removed from the Book of Mormon: “because that they had hardened their hearts”, “because that ye are of the house of Israel”, “After that I have abridged”, etc.
* that it/that they - 1 Ne 13:14 - Hebrew sometimes repeats a word by adding an unnecessary (in English) pronoun: “beheld the wrath of God that it was upon the seed of my brethren” instead of “beheld that the wrath of God was upon the seed of my brethren.” See also 1 Ne 12:20, 13:15, 14:14.
* reigned under his father - Alma 13:18 - “under” means in place of, not as you would expect a “vice-president” arrangement.
* rent - Alma 46:19 - original edition says “waving the rent of his garment”, now says “... rent part”. Making a noun out of a verb is acceptable Hebrew.
* who/which - 1 Ne 16:37 - the subordinate clause can follow some distance after the noun it’s modifying: “Our brother Nephi.. has taken it upon him to be our ruler and our teacher, who are his older brethren.” See also 1 Ne 17:27, Mosiah 27:31.
* with joy, with patience, with diligence - There are few adverbs in Hebrew, so we see these “adverbials” instead of joyfully, patiently, or diligently.
* women - 1 Ne 17:1 - “women” means “wives”, since there is no word for “wife” in Hebrew. See also 1 Ne 17:20, Alma 10:11.

Poetry: the following poetical forms are found in the Book of Mormon
* synonymous parallelism - 1 Ne 1:15 - one line repeats the previous in slightly different words: “For his soul did rejoice and his whole heart was filled.”
* antithetic parallelism - 1 Ne 17:45 - the thought in one line contrasts and emphasizes the concept of another: “You are swift to do iniquity but slow to remember the Lord your God.”
* climactic parallelism - Mosiah 4:9-10 - One line echoes the thought of the previous, while adding an element which completes the meaning: “Believe in God; believe that he is and that he created all things... believe that you must repent of your sins and forsake them.”
* chiasmus - Jacob 4:9 - parallelism where one line repeats another in reverse order: “By the power of his word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word.” See also Alma 36 where the entire chapter is a chiasmus.

That's a great list.

Probably the most intriguing "lucky guess" I've come across is "And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee,", then the Egyptologists find DSRT was the name associated with bees in old Egyptian. For those unaware, the vowels were left out of early Hebrew and Egyptian, so DSRT could have been pronounced "desarat", "dasarut", or as some modern Egyptologists write it "deshret".

First of all, that's a really odd sentence structure and seems out of place. Not only does it seem a counter intuitive insertion for someone claiming to have interpreted the book anyway, but turns out he nailed it perfectly. Why is one word randomly thrown in with an interpretation like this?

 

[Stoked]

Before this last question from Siro, this thread had turned to ****.

Then help redirect it.

 

[Gameface]

That's a great list.

Probably the most intriguing "lucky guess" I've come across is "And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honey bee,", then the Egyptologists find DSRT was the name associated with bees in old Egyptian. For those unaware, the vowels were left out of early Hebrew and Egyptian, so DSRT could have been pronounced "desarat", "dasarut", or as some modern Egyptologists write it "deshret".

First of all, that's a really odd sentence structure and seems out of place. Not only does it seem a counter intuitive insertion for someone claiming to have interpreted the book anyway, but turns out he nailed it perfectly. Why is one word randomly thrown in with an interpretation like this?

I'm not trying to be a smart *** here, I promise.

franklin, you getting ready to "take the discussions?"

 

[franklin]

I'm not trying to be a smart *** here, I promise.

franklin, you getting ready to "take the discussions?"

No. God doesn't talk to me. I wouldn't need the sales pitch if He did.

 

[Archie Moses]

Franklin is a mormon in sheep clothing. Hehepeepeecaca

 

[colton]

I'm surprised by that answer. It just begs more questions. Keep in mind that I'm just looking for informed speculation from someone who is versed in both subjects (Mormonism and physics).

Speculation is an apt word.

- Are you in the deterministic quantum mechanics camp? If so, what interpretation do you favor? Hidden variables? If not, how do you understand the statement about God seeing all of space and time?

No, I'm completely against deterministic QM. I actually see non-deterministic QM as allowing for freedom of choice.

As far as God seeing all of space and time, my view is that just because he sees what happens (has happened, will happen) doesn't mean he causes what happens. So it doesn't conflict with freedom of choice.

- I always thought Mormons, like most Judeo-Christian-Muslim believers, saw God as human-like in some way (they say that we are made in his image for example).

Yes. Mormons probably more than most, actually.

But you're implying that God does not experience, at least not in any meaningful definition of experience. He exists in a state that cannot be compared to any conscious human-like entity. Is that right? Or have I misunderstood?

That's an interesting question, and I haven't really thought about it from that point of view before. I guess I'd say that yes, his current state cannot be compared to how we humans currently experience life.

- If I understood correctly, you're also saying that human existence in heaven is in no way analogous to experience on earth? It isn't sequential? It is, in a way, the end of existence? Are there no more possibilities at that point (since humans will live across all space and time at once)?

Rather than saying it's the end of existence, I'd say that it's the beginning (or perhaps continuation) of a very different kind of existence, more glorious than we can currently comprehend. Other Mormons clearly might feel differently about what life in heaven will be like.

 

[CONAN]

just answer the questions and stop blaming everyone for your own shortcomings.

wtf

 

[CONAN]

Me pointing out that you are a self righteous prick means my panties are in a bunch? K.

Wow, now you're really going off the deep end. I see we are off course and now you are just ranting on your normal agenda against me. Always a fan of self-righteous folks claiming others are self-righteous. Careful up there, Guy.

 

[franklin]

Franklin is a mormon in sheep clothing. Hehepeepeecaca

I don't know what this means.

 

[Archie Moses]

I don't either.

 

[Gameface]

wtf

I'm trying to have fun with you but you won't have it.