Missed Opportunities

[oldtimer]

Tigg3r: I have seen this argument posted all day and it makes no sense to me. The argument being this trade helps us tank. It does no such thing. These three players may or may not help us win or lose games. In my opinion the same five or six guys we had before are still the same five or six guys that will play. The three losers picked up today don't help or hurt our tanking. The just stop us from getting anything better that may come along.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Also, Jazz lose leverage if they go into the beginning of the year under the payroll threshold. Teams will know that and ofter less of an incentive. Hard to get more incentive than two unrestricted picks on a team with a questionable coach and low level all star talent.

 

[oldtimer]

Shaggy: That is not the argument I was making, its just a strawman. I'm not saying we could have gotten all four of these players, what I'm saying is that with cap space the jazz could select the one or two players that would really help us. Whether its Copeland, Asik, Millsap, etc. We can't do anything now but watch as teams under the cap get better players and better picks the close we come to the trade deadline next year.

 

[Scramantha]

Scram: why is it when somebody raises an argument people don't like they call them an 11 year old. Does that make you feel superior in some way? Most likely I've been a jazz fan longer than you have been alive. Can't I legitimately hate this trade? I believe time will prove that the Jazz made a huge mistake because other opportunities will be available that we missed out on because of this ridiculous trade. I think its bad to get rid of 24 million dollars in cap space for what will most likely be picks in the mid 20's.

Fair enough, bad behavior on my part. But dude... even the other opportunities you directly cite suck. And these other mystery opportunities out there you mention don't actually exist. You realize these contracts the Jazz took on last one year, right? The Jazz essentially agreed to hold another team's crap bag for a season that was already a total tank/growing opportunity for the youngsters and got two 1st round picks and two 2nd round picks. They sacrificed nothing except Greg Miller's money (which I don't care about) and got nicely rewarded for it.

I love it. I love everything about it. And in 2017, when Steph Curry's ankle is long gone, Bogut is 2 years into retirment, and the Warriors have slipped right back into the lottery you are going to love it too.

 

[trigg3r]

Tigg3r: I have seen this argument posted all day and it makes no sense to me. The argument being this trade helps us tank. It does no such thing. These three players may or may not help us win or lose games. In my opinion the same five or six guys we had before and still the same five or six guys that will play. The three losers picked up today don't help or hurt our tanking.

You already pointed out how it helps us tank. Instead of signing a guy like OJ Mayo(who could have led to more wins); we ended up getting a broken down Richard Jefferson, a garbage 3rd big man in Biedrins, and a guy who has had some injuries in Rush. I actually like Rush though. He seems like he is pretty solid when he plays. So instead of signing or trading for the guys you mentioned, we went out and spent our cap space on Golden State's garbage. All of which are expiring contracts. We did this and ended up getting ourselves some unprotected picks in the process. Looks like a win-win to me.

 

[trigg3r]

Also add to that, there should be no excuse why Kanter and Favors aren't starting now. Paul is likely not coming back, Al is gone. The young guys will finally get their shot.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Shaggy: That is not the argument I was making, its just a strawman. I'm not saying we could have gotten all four of these players, what I'm saying is that will cap space the jazz could select the one or two players that would really help us. Whether its Copeland, Asik, Millsap, etc. We can't do anything now but watch as teams under the cap get better players and better picks the close we come to the trade deadline next year.

Help us what?

Compete for what, exactly?

Plus, what better picks? What teams are over the tax that would sacrifice an unrestricted, definite lottery pick to get under the tax? The answer is zero. No star player is going to be traded to get a team under the tax.

 

[oldtimer]

Darkwing: Its just day 1. The four players I listed were just the players taken today. Me personally I think Asik is better than average and I like him a lot. That being said there will be more players and opportunities lost.

I also disagree that Jazz lose leverage by going into next year under the cap. We could just bonus the existing players if needed. I don't think it would come to that as I believe teams will be begging the Celtics, Cavs and other teams to take players to get under the tax come the trade deadline. This just looks like a panic move.

 

[trigg3r]

Help us what?

Compete for what, exactly?

Plus, what better picks? What teams are over the tax that would sacrifice an unrestricted, definite lottery pick to get under the tax? The answer is zero. No star player is going to be traded to get a team under the tax.

This.

 

[trigg3r]

Darkwing: Its just day 1. The four players I listed were just the players taken today. Me personally I think Asik is better than average and I like him a lot. That being said there will be more players and opportunities lost.

I also disagree that Jazz lose leverage by going into next year under the cap. We could just bonus the existing players if needed. I don't think it would come to that as I believe teams will be begging the Celtics, Cavs and other teams to take players to get under the tax come the trade deadline. This just looks like a panic move.

In this scenario we don't get the picks and the money is just spent anyway when they spread it around to the current roster. That wouldn't make any sense compared to this trade

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Darkwing: Its just day 1. The four players I listed were just the players taken today. Me personally I think Asik is better than average and I like him a lot. That being said there will be more players and opportunities lost.

I also disagree that Jazz lose leverage by going into next year under the cap. We could just bonus the existing players if needed. I don't think it would come to that as I believe teams will be begging the Celtics, Cavs and other teams to take players to get under the tax come the trade deadline. This just looks like a panic move.

And if came down to that, what assets have the Jazz gotten? Zero. They now have two more UNRESTRICTED first round draft picks.

And begging the Jazz to take players? What teams. Show your work. Give me an example of a team over the luxury tax that will BEG the Jazz to take him off their hands worth more than two unrestricted first round draft picks? Asik is not even close to that.

 

[oldtimer]

Tigg3r your argument assumes the jazz goes out and gets someone today that helps them win 20 games. Picking up Asik doesn't help us win 20 more games. Picking up Asik rounds out our bigs and when the jazz finally surround them with better scoring options then we get exponentially better in the future.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Tigg3r your argument assumes the jazz goes out and gets someone today that helps them win 20 games. Picking up Asik doesn't help us win 20 more games. Picking up Asik rounds out our bigs and when the jazz finally surround them with better scoring options then we get exponentially better in the future.

Asik costs money, which would cut into the ability to get "better scoring options."

 

[trigg3r]

Tigg3r your argument assumes the jazz goes out and gets someone today that helps them win 20 games. Picking up Asik doesn't help us win 20 more games. Picking up Asik rounds out our bigs and when the jazz finally surround them with better scoring options then we get exponentially better in the future.

I said we are tanking, not contending. I don't assume we will pick up anyone that will have that kind of impact. It would be counterproductive to tanking, would it not? Asik makes no sense for a team like the Jazz when you look at how much money he is owed and the years left on his deal.

 

[oldtimer]

Darkwing: I hope your crystal ball is better than mine. I don't know exactly what players and picks will be available come the trade deadline. I believe the new tax consequences of the CBA are going to force teams to do things they don't want to do and very good players and picks would be available later for teams with cap space.

 

[Bodhi]

Oldtimer: Do you like Asik so much that you'd pay him $14mil in '14-15?


FOURTEEN MEEEEEELION!

 

[oldtimer]

Asik is just one example guys. The only reason I wouldn't want Asik is because his contract goes from a reasonable 10 million approx. to 15 million approx. If he keeps improving he may be worth more than that.

 

[Bodhi]

Asik is just one example guys. The only reason I wouldn't want Asik is because his contract goes from a reasonable 10 million approx. to 15 million approx. If he keeps improving he may be worth more than that.

Ok, this is the ideal time for me to exit the conversation then.

 

[oldtimer]

And if came down to that, what assets have the Jazz gotten? Zero. They now have two more UNRESTRICTED first round draft picks.

And begging the Jazz to take players? What teams. Show your work. Give me an example of a team over the luxury tax that will BEG the Jazz to take him off their hands worth more than two unrestricted first round draft picks? Asik is not even close to that.

Darkwing what were the three first round picks worth that the lakers gave to memphis for pau gasol? Nothing, nada zip. Unless we get lucky those unrestricted first round picks will be mid 20ish.

I don't have a list of tax paying teams. I do know there are tax paying teams and I believe there would have been better options in the future. On day one, five options were available and pissed away (if you add Millsap to my original list) because we signed three losers. More options will come available I'm sure of it.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Darkwing: I hope your crystal ball is better than mine. I don't know exactly what players and picks will be available come the trade deadline. I believe the new take consequences of the CBA are going to force teams to do things they don't want to do and very good players and picks would be available later for teams with cap space.

I'll help you.

Heat, Lakers, Nets, Knicks, and Clippers are the only teams I see that are going to be well into the luxury tax. No team is going to try to get under the CAP in the middle of the season because by definition, they're already there. Trades for salary purposes in the middle of the season are tax related for that season. What out of those teams is going to net the Jazz better than two unrestricted draft picks? Lakers can't trade any picks for five years, neither can the Nets. There's nothing there that's intriguing like two unprotected draft picks.