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The Grantland Dr. V Transgender Controversy

Good hell what a long article. I started reading it, and wondering what in the world does golf have to do with being transgender? Why am I reading an article about golf? I came back to this thread, and found the summary provided by Hotttnickkk. Still haven't read more than the first few paragraphs of the article. It's just so long. Perhaps I'll read the entire thing later.

I'll just touch on the topic of coming out. It is a very personal situation, and should be handled by each individual in whatever manner they choose. It is not right for anyone to out another person, especially without that person's permission. For me personally, I choose to try to be open about my transgender identity. I do so in the hopes of helping to rid the world of even just a little bit of the ignorance and prejudice towards transgender people. My mind is going in a lot of different directions with this topic, so I'm just going to stop for now. I may post more in this thread at a later time.
 
If this person didn't want anybody to know, then why did he/she do what he/she did? Could have declined being interviewed for the article as well.

Sorry, about the he/she thing, but I don't know a better way to identify the subject.

Well when the writer contacted her for an interview, she made it very clear to him in an email correspondence that she wanted this to be about the "invention" and not about the "inventor" behind the invention.


However, as the correspondence progressed, she also talked to him on the phone a few times, she started to reveal more of her personal life to him. It wasn't until he confronted her with the "facts" that she started to become more defensive.


Right near the end she re-iterated to him that she didn't want the piece to be about her personally, etc. But by that time though it was too late. The writer made the mistake of outing her to one of her investors, which I think blew the whole thing up. She also got paranoid thinking the writer works for one of her competitors trying to bring her down (her competitors have made threats to her in the past).


The article was published well after she was dead, so it was non-consequential in the sense that the article itself did not "kill" her.
 
Well when the writer contacted her for an interview, she made it very clear to him in an email correspondence that she wanted this to be about the "invention" and not about the "inventor" behind the invention.


However, as the correspondence progressed, she also talked to him on the phone a few times, she started to reveal more of her personal life to him. It wasn't until he confronted her with the "facts" that she started to become more defensive.


Right near the end she re-iterated to him that she didn't want the piece to be about her personally, etc. But by that time though it was too late. The writer made the mistake of outing her to one of her investors, which I think blew the whole thing up. She also got paranoid thinking the writer works for one of her competitors trying to bring her down (her competitors have made threats to her in the past).


The article was published well after she was dead, so it was non-consequential in the sense that the article itself did not "kill" her.

Word. The author should have been more sensitive to the interviewee. I'm sure he would expect reciprocal behavior.

Obviously the interviewee felt that the backlash she would receive outweighed the opportunity of reducing transgender stigma by .0000000001% by being open about it. Somebody had also posted about personal problems she may have had, like harrassment charges and such, so it may not have been about being transgender anyways.

Not gonna blame this article for the suicide at all. That was her choice. It could have been a contributing factor tho, who knows?

And props to everyone for telling me how long this article is, I am certain to never read it. Thanks everybody!
 
Well I read it all. The original 8,000 word essay. The Bill Simmons apology. The response from Christina Kahrl. That was a LOT of reading. It's rather horrific. The reporter had absolutely no right to out this person to the investor. That is the biggest blunder of this entire situation. The article published after their death is horrible. It's all very disturbing.

Why is it so hard for people to use the correct pronouns? It happens on this forum, and I have already pointed out previously how it is offensive. It's very simple. Follow the lead of the individual in question. Use the pronoun that fits their presentation. If you aren't sure, find a polite way to ask them. Treat people with respect. It should be simple.
 
Well I read it all. The original 8,000 word essay. The Bill Simmons apology. The response from Christina Kahrl. That was a LOT of reading. It's rather horrific. The reporter had absolutely no right to out this person to the investor. That is the biggest blunder of this entire situation. The article published after their death is horrible. It's all very disturbing.

Why is it so hard for people to use the correct pronouns? It happens on this forum, and I have already pointed out previously how it is offensive. It's very simple. Follow the lead of the individual in question. Use the pronoun that fits their presentation. If you aren't sure, find a polite way to ask them. Treat people with respect. It should be simple.

I have mixed feelings about the entire incident.

Katie, I know that you know that I'm sympathetic to the transgender community and have no animus towards persons that are transgender. So please keep that in mind as I write this:

1. Investigations as to the person who invented the club were absolutely in-bounds. To the extent that the personal history of the inventor was put forward as a way to sell the club, that personal history was fair game to investigate.

2. That Dr. V had changed her name was relevant to the story. The reason Dr. V changed her name was not necessarily relevant to the story. I don't know that it's possible to write about the background of Dr. V without mentioning that history is difficult to find because of the name change. If you mention that Dr. V changed her name at some point without stating the reason why, the reader may draw their own conclusions (and they will probably conclude that Dr. V was a scam artist, but in any event none of the conclusions will be positive towards Dr. V). Certainly that appears to be a way to side-step the issue entirely. Reporters have a desire to report. Because the author knew the reason for the name change I'm not shocked he wrote why, and I think that impulse is defensible although unfortunate in this instance.

3. I think the social stigma of "outing" another person is close to being entirely eliminated. We're not there yet, but I think the language of "outing" is significantly undercut by the fact that the career and social repercussions of being outed as gay are becoming increasingly marginal. We're probably within a generation of it being near zero.

There are exceptions to this obviously. NPH appears to have a monopoly on being publicly gay but being accepted unquestioningly when he plays straight men in TV or film. Audiences appear to have no problem accepting publicly straight actors playing gay, or even transgender, so this is probably just a failure of imagination on the part of casting directors. But in any event, being outed as an actor may have detrimental effects on your ability to obtain straight romantic lead roles. This is just an example, but it's designed to illustrate how close I think we are getting to real acceptance for homosexuals. Using "outing" in this instance I think undercuts how scary coming out as transgender may be because the social stigma is basically a thousand times worse and knowledge is much worse about the subject. Because "outing" is so closely tied to gay experience I suspect that discussing it in terms of outing will lead many to believe this isn't that bad.

4. I do not believe that Caleb Hannan is, in any real way, responsible for the death of Dr. V.

5. I think we're playing the speculation game to large degree as to the extent that revealing Dr. V as transgender to an investor played a role in her death. To be honest, we're not entirely sure that she knew about it.

6. I suspect this incident, among those who are aware of it, is likely going to be net positive for transgender persons. I certainly can't remember any other incident on a non-niche forum that created such generally positive coverage related to transgender persons and that clearly articulated several issues in the community. That virtually every large web-magazine (Slate, MoJo, Gawker etc) covered it indicates that its visibility was relatively high.

7. I don't think it's fair to say that the article's quality is solely determined by its handling of this single subject. It's some of the most well-written reporting I've seen in the last few years. You could excise every reference to Dr. V being transgender and it would remain so. That's probably an argument for removal of the references but I'm saying that the references, taken alone, do not remove it from the camp of quality reporting.

8. Finally, I think the decision to leave the article up is the correct one.

In any event, it is certainly an interesting little cultural happening.
 
Still waiting... oh well, to be expected.

Alright to be fair he just post rep me with comment "#PeaceB4Beef -Love HH"


WI_Respek.jpg
 
4. I do not believe that Caleb Hannan is, in any real way, responsible for the death of Dr. V.

Yeah, but if Caleb did not start to "nose around" and stuck with Dr. V's original request to focus on the invention and not the inventor, I don't think she would have died.

5. I think we're playing the speculation game to large degree as to the extent that revealing Dr. V as transgender to an investor played a role in her death. To be honest, we're not entirely sure that she knew about it.

Sure, it's not possible to say, "to what extent did that play a part", but the fact remained that had Caleb stuck with Dr. V's original request, we would not be here today.

7. I don't think it's fair to say that the article's quality is solely determined by its handling of this single subject. It's some of the most well-written reporting I've seen in the last few years. You could excise every reference to Dr. V being transgender and it would remain so. That's probably an argument for removal of the references but I'm saying that the references, taken alone, do not remove it from the camp of quality reporting.

Most of it is well written, until at the very end where he said "Writing a eulogy for a person who by all accounts despised you is an odd experience." To me that's Vindictive - to a person who is already dead, no less. Does she despise him? May be - but we'll never know that for a fact as Dr. V is now dead and cannot give us her side of the story. Notwithstanding that, he is no saint neither. He outed her to one of her investors and yet he never once mentioned this fact in his story. By not disclosing this information, to me it cannot be said that he gave a balanced account of what happened. Moreover, if he had "forgotten" to include this, it makes the reader wonders what other vital information he left out of the story.

8. Finally, I think the decision to leave the article up is the correct one.

Only to the extent of illustrating "What not to do, and how not to treat a fellow human being", which is the view of the Editor who dissected the original article in "What Grantland Got Wrong".
 
Yeah, but if Caleb did not start to "nose around" and stuck with Dr. V's original request to focus on the invention and not the inventor, I don't think she would have died.

If she hadn't defrauded the public, then she'd probably be alive, too. Not really a good argument.



Sure, it's not possible to say, "to what extent did that play a part", but the fact remained that had Caleb stuck with Dr. V's original request, we would not be here today.

The invention itself was claimed to be backed by a PhD from MIT. Can't focus on the invention without the inventor with that claim.





Most of it is well written, until at the very end where he said "Writing a eulogy for a person who by all accounts despised you is an odd experience." To me that's Vindictive - to a person who is already dead, no less. Does she despise him? May be - but we'll never know that for a fact as Dr. V is now dead and cannot give us her side of the story. Notwithstanding that, he is no saint neither. He outed her to one of her investors and yet he never once mentioned this fact in his story. By not disclosing this information, to me it cannot be said that he gave a balanced account of what happened. Moreover, if he had "forgotten" to include this, it makes the reader wonders what other vital information he left out of the story.

What's your reasoning for it being vindictive. No one that I've seen has remarked that the investor part wasn't a poor decision.

Only to the extent of illustrating "What not to do, and how not to treat a fellow human being", which is the view of the Editor who dissected the original article in "What Grantland Got Wrong".

So the correct thing to do was to shelve the story and let her keep defrauding people?



And again, given how the product was advertised, the credentials and history of the inventor is fully fair game. As an investigative piece, noting that the inventor doesn't have the credentials isn't strong enough. Have to go further in depth. And just writing that the inventor has no history prior to a certain date leads to more questions.

Just a bad deal all around.
 
If she hadn't defrauded the public, then she'd probably be alive, too. Not really a good argument.


The invention itself was claimed to be backed by a PhD from MIT. Can't focus on the invention without the inventor with that claim.


What's your reasoning for it being vindictive. No one that I've seen has remarked that the investor part wasn't a poor decision.



So the correct thing to do was to shelve the story and let her keep defrauding people?



And again, given how the product was advertised, the credentials and history of the inventor is fully fair game. As an investigative piece, noting that the inventor doesn't have the credentials isn't strong enough. Have to go further in depth. And just writing that the inventor has no history prior to a certain date leads to more questions.

Just a bad deal all around.

I think the correct thing to do was to approach her in a sensitive way and work out something whereby she has a say in how she would be "outed".


Going behind her back and out her to one of her investors like that wasn't right IMO. This is a sensitive subject and should have been treated in that way.
 
Sad story.

Dr. V obviously had a lot of issues going on in her life, and it sucks that this author is going to feel guilty/be blamed by some for her death.

I'm sure it opened a lot of eyes (including mine).
 
I got the feeling the article is about Caleb Hannan almost as much as it is about Dr. V and her hold club.



But obviously I'm not a golfer.


Sent from the JazzFanz app
 
So the correct thing to do was to shelve the story and let her keep defrauding people?

How exactly is any of this fraud? The club either works or it doesn't. What difference does it make what kind of superpowers or whatever the creator claims? Don't they all? Axe bodyspray didn't lead to supermodels throwing themselves at me when I was in college. Is that fraud?
 
How exactly is any of this fraud? The club either works or it doesn't. What difference does it make what kind of superpowers or whatever the creator claims? Don't they all? Axe bodyspray didn't lead to supermodels throwing themselves at me when I was in college. Is that fraud?
Dr. V apparently made untrue claims about her background and therefore the science behind this club. That was a major selling point and it was clearly fraudulent. The Axe bodyspray stuff is done as a spoof and everyone knows it.
 
Dr. V apparently made untrue claims about her background and therefore the science behind this club. That was a major selling point and it was clearly fraudulent. The Axe bodyspray stuff is done as a spoof and everyone knows it.

The club either worked or it didn't. It has nothing to do with the background of the inventor.
 
The club either worked or it didn't. It has nothing to do with the background of the inventor.
So you think that if I sell cookie dough that I purport to extend the human lifespan that's okay, as long as we ultimately discover that there is some truth in my statement, for some people? What if I report that the basis for my claim is that I got a biology degree from a world renowned institution and then spent a career working on top-secret government projects that lend credence to my ability to develop such a product? Would you say that it doesn't really matter if you do a little investigating and discover that I made those credentials up? Would you argue that they have no bearing on the product even though they are central to the way I marketed the product and the reason that many people bought the product?
 
How exactly is any of this fraud? The club either works or it doesn't. What difference does it make what kind of superpowers or whatever the creator claims? Don't they all? Axe bodyspray didn't lead to supermodels throwing themselves at me when I was in college. Is that fraud?

If AXE said there was scientific backing behind using their body spray and women jumping your bones, then yes, it would be fraud.
 
So you think that if I sell cookie dough that I purport to extend the human lifespan that's okay, as long as we ultimately discover that there is some truth in my statement, for some people? What if I report that the basis for my claim is that I got a biology degree from a world renowned institution and then spent a career working on top-secret government projects that lend credence to my ability to develop such a product? Would you say that it doesn't really matter if you do a little investigating and discover that I made those credentials up? Would you argue that they have no bearing on the product even though they are central to the way I marketed the product and the reason that many people bought the product?

Of course it has no bearing. The product either works or it doesn't work. If it works, your credentials are irrelevant. You could be a quintuple Nobel Prize winner or an elementary school drop out. Same goes the other way. If it doesn't work, your credentials don't matter. Do you base your purchases on whether a product works for you or how many degrees the person designing it has?

And as far as advertisement, geez. Doesn't being wary of it come as part and parcel of living in a market economy? If you buy a product simply because someone famous/important/brilliant is attached to it, you're kind of a sucker. Every fad diet has a doctor pushing it. Does it matter if it's a fake or a real doctor? Can a real doctor not plug something that doesn't work?

The problem is that the article is called Dr. V's Magical Putter and at the end of the day, the last thing Hannan seems to be concerned with is the freaking putter. If the purpose was to figure out if the miracle putter is a miracle putter, then put it through scientific tests. If it works, it works. Makes no difference who made it or whether it was design or accident. It works, and it does what it advertises. If it doesn't work, again, makes no difference who made it. It doesn't work, so you can throw it away. No need to dig up personal history of the person who made it.

Except that I don't think Hannan ever cared it the putter works. His only test seems to prove that when you believe the putter was made by a brilliant, female astrophysicist, then it works. When you know it's made by a duplicitous, transgender mechanic, then it doesn't.
 
If AXE said there was scientific backing behind using their body spray and women jumping your bones, then yes, it would be fraud.

What if it worked? What if they said there was scientific backing and it worked? Would it matter how it worked?
 
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