If anyone cares, Big D visits Utah. 7 PM MST. 3/12/14.

[fishonjazz]

8-18 shooting for a total 20 points is inefficient.
4-12 is plain bad (=Burks)

edit: besides, I dislike the idea that their best PG is a ballhog! Burks on the other hand is da man! He has been huge this season.

One of burks attempts was from half court at the buzzer btw

 

[GVC]

To the points per shot people, which player was more efficient?:

Player A: 0-3 FG, 5-8 FT, 4 turnovers: 11 possessions used, 5 points; 1.67 points per shot, 0.45 points per possession, .383 TS

Player B: 3-5 FG, 1-2 3PT, 0-0 FT,0 turnovers: 5 possessions used, 7 points; 1.4 points per shot, 1.4 points per possession, .700 TS

Points per shot is ****ing stupid. When you draw a shooting foul, you burn a possession, just like when you take a shot. Even if you ignore turnovers and shot context, there are much better metrics.

 

[fishonjazz]

To the points per shot people, which player was more efficient?:

Player A: 0-3 FG, 5-8 FT, 4 turnovers: 11 possessions used, 5 points; 1.67 points per shot, 0.45 points per possession, .383 TS

Player B: 3-5 FG, 1-2 3PT, 0-0 FT,0 turnovers: 5 possessions used, 7 points; 1.4 points per shot, 1.4 points per possession, .700 TS

Points per shot is ****ing stupid. When you draw a shooting foul, you burn a possession, just like when you take a shot. Even if you ignore turnovers and shot context, there are much better metrics.

So its not perfect for sure, but i would rather have a player score 20 points on 10 shots than 20 points on 20 shots if they have the same amount of turnovers, assists, rebounds, blocks, steals etc.

What if player A shoots 10 for 10 from the field and goes 5-5 from the line for 25 pts..... player B goes 10 for 20 and 0-0 from the line for 20 pts.
Which is better?
Sometimes PPS can show that a player was efficient with thier possesions. I like efficient players.

Sometimes it wont mean much, but other times it will. Just like almost every stat that exists.

Blocks are dumb because a guy could have lots of blocks but still get beat alot.
steals are dumb because a guy could be playing to risky to get the steals and get beat alot.
assists are dumb because a guy could just be making pedestrian passes and teammates hitting shots.
Per is dumb.
stats are dumb.

 

[GVC]

So its not perfect for sure, but i would rather have a player score 20 points on 10 shots than 20 points on 20 shots if they have the same amount of turnovers, assists, rebounds, blocks, steals etc.

In other words, you're sticking with the stupid stat, when you can just add free throw attempts/2 to the "shots" denominator and get a better one. Why? Raw field goal percentage is just as useful as points per shot.

 

[fishonjazz]

Raw field goal percentage is just as useful as points per shot.

I agree. Both raw field goal percentage and pps can be useful

 

[GVC]

I agree. Both raw field goal percentage and pps can be useful

PPS is useless. It's for stupid people.

 

[fishonjazz]

PPS is useless. It's for stupid people.

A better, more efficient way to interact with other people would be to say something like "i dont like pps stat, i prefer (fill in the blank) instead"

 

[cowhide]

8-18 is one shot from being 50 percent so it isn't as bad as people make it sound. I guess part of the issue is that it is the PG and he should be passing more but it isn't 3-15.

 

[orangello]

8-18 is one shot from being 50 percent so it isn't as bad as people make it sound. I guess part of the issue is that it is the PG and he should be passing more but it isn't 3-15.

Yes, he should be looking for his teammates shot more than he looks for his own.

Let's be honest, last night was an above average night for Burke.

Sent from the JazzFanz app

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

PPS is useless. It's for stupid people.

It's not useless. Some of the best offensive players have very high PPS and it is a clear factor of their efficiency.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

To the points per shot people, which player was more efficient?:

Player A: 0-3 FG, 5-8 FT, 4 turnovers: 11 possessions used, 5 points; 1.67 points per shot, 0.45 points per possession, .383 TS

Player B: 3-5 FG, 1-2 3PT, 0-0 FT,0 turnovers: 5 possessions used, 7 points; 1.4 points per shot, 1.4 points per possession, .700 TS

Points per shot is ****ing stupid. When you draw a shooting foul, you burn a possession, just like when you take a shot. Even if you ignore turnovers and shot context, there are much better metrics.

Drawing a foul is the best thing you can do with a possession.

 

[mct]

GVC, you're fighting a losing battle. Matt Harpring has spent the last three years telling us how important it is to score impossible amounts of points per shot. Personally, I don't even look at a guy who scores less than 3 points per shot.

If I played in the NBA, I would never take a shot that wasn't a free throw. I would go down as the most efficient scorer to ever play the game. Infinity points per shot.

 

[Hantlers]

I think what makes some people haters are the people who ONLY discuss a players flaws and never discuss a players positives. Im not saying that is you, but there are some posters that only talk about the negatives of kanter, and to a lesser extent, burks and burke

My post was more in reference to a certain faction of posters from a certain foreign country that think that anybody who says anything critical of Kanter is a "hater".

It's reminiscent of when Carlos Arroyo played here.

 

[orangello]

My post was more in reference to a certain faction of posters from a certain foreign country that think that anybody who says anything critical of Kanter is a "hater".

It's reminiscent of when Carlos Arroyo played here.

People from that certain country loved a Puerto Rican PG? Seems weird to me but what do I know.

Sent from the JazzFanz app

 

[fishonjazz]

GVC, you're fighting a losing battle. Matt Harpring has spent the last three years telling us how important it is to score impossible amounts of points per shot. Personally, I don't even look at a guy who scores less than 3 points per shot.

If I played in the NBA, I would never take a shot that wasn't a free throw. I would go down as the most efficient scorer to ever play the game. Infinity points per shot.

Hell i think the pps stat is so dumb that if i were a gm i would try to aquire players with the lowest PPS that i could find. That is probably the quickest way to a championship

 

[GVC]

It's not useless. Some of the best offensive players have very high PPS and it is a clear factor of their efficiency.

Drawing a foul is the best thing you can do with a possession.

Hell i think the pps stat is so dumb that if i were a gm i would try to aquire players with the lowest PPS that i could find. That is probably the quickest way to a championship

You're both missing the point. Nowhere did I say that, all else equal, higher points per shot is better. Nowhere did I say that drawing a shooting foul is a bad outcome. Who are you arguing with?

My point is that there are better measures that capture how efficiently players use possessions. Ignoring possessions that end in a shooting foul (or a turnover...or ignoring context) is not very smart.

Look at my example again.

Player A uses 11 possessions, scores 5 points and draws 4 fouls.
Player B uses 5 possessions, scores 7 points and draws 0 fouls.

Player B is contributing 1.4 points per possession. For Player A to contribute that much, his possessions have to be worth 11*1.4=15.4 points in total. Since all his points are scored at the line, this means that either those 4 shooting fouls have to be valuable as 15.4 points (3.85 points per shooting foul) OR they have to worth 10.4 points above the value of the free throws made (2.6 points per shooting foul above the value of free throws made). Effectively, you'd have to argue that the defense would be better off giving up a layup and turning the ball over on their next couple possessions than committing a shooting foul. That's ****ing ridiculous.

Yes, a shooting foul is just about the best outcome on a possession. Yes, higher points per shot is better. That doesn't mean points per shot is a good stat relative to other alternatives. True shooting percentage is MUCH better. If you think it undervalues drawing fouls, you can change the weight free throw attempts get in the denominator (below .44) quite easily. Points per shot is ****ing stupid.

 

[[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]]

I see that Burke shot a free throw last night. Awesome. Anybody got a .gif of that? Much rep

 

[fishonjazz]

Yes, a shooting foul is just about the best outcome on a possession. Yes, higher points per shot is better. That doesn't mean points per shot is a good stat relative to other alternatives. True shooting percentage is MUCH better. If you think it undervalues drawing fouls, you can change the weight free throw attempts get in the denominator (below .44) quite easily.

This is what is the type of post that should have originally been posted.
I can dig it

 

[candrew]

I see that Burke shot a free throw last night. Awesome. Anybody got a .gif of that? Much rep

Don't get too excited - it was off a technical.

 

[colton]

Player A uses 11 possessions, scores 5 points and draws 4 fouls.
Player B uses 5 possessions, scores 7 points and draws 0 fouls.

Player B is contributing 1.4 points per possession. For Player A to contribute that much, his possessions have to be worth 11*1.4=15.4 points in total. Since all his points are scored at the line, this means that either those 4 shooting fouls have to be valuable as 15.4 points (3.85 points per shooting foul) OR they have to worth 10.4 points above the value of the free throws made (2.6 points per shooting foul above the value of free throws made). Effectively, you'd have to argue that the defense would be better off giving up a layup and turning the ball over on their next couple possessions than committing a shooting foul. That's ****ing ridiculous.

Yes, a shooting foul is just about the best outcome on a possession. Yes, higher points per shot is better. That doesn't mean points per shot is a good stat relative to other alternatives. True shooting percentage is MUCH better. If you think it undervalues drawing fouls, you can change the weight free throw attempts get in the denominator (below .44) quite easily. Points per shot is ****ing stupid.

Does anyone actually track points per possession? That would be even better than your FT/2 adjustment to PPS, and seems it wouldn't be hard to do based on sites that now track every possession. And I think all would agree that that would be an excellent metric, no?