My argument for the death penalty...

[Hopper]

You know seeking the death penalty and the actual execution costs more than incarcerating a prisoner for life right?

Naw, wrong, Baby. Talkin for my own damn self, I aint knowwin that. I duz hears-tells that on average it costs $40-50,000 a year, per prisoner, to keep they sorry *** though. That would be, like, $1 million every 20-25 years. Where ya see that?

 

[Hopper]

It is inherently speculative...an educated guess is still, inherently, a guess.

I spoze if I axxed 1,000 peoples to guess a number between 1 and 100, they would all "guess" 13, eh, Kicky?

"The current medical consensus is that life does survive, for a period of roughly thirteen seconds, varying slightly depending on the victim's build, health and the immediate circumstances of the decapitation. The simple act of removing a head from a body is not what kills the brain, rather, it is the lack of oxygen and other important chemicals provided in the bloodstream....the second question is 'how long does the victim remain aware?' While the brain remains chemically alive, consciousness can cease immediately, caused by the loss of blood pressure...If that weren't to happen immediately, an individual could in theory remain self-aware for part of the thirteen-second period."

LINK

Pure speculation, ya figure?

 

[BabyPeterzz]

Naw, wrong, Baby. Talkin for my own damn self, I aint knowwin that. I duz hears-tells that on average it costs $40-50,000 a year, per prisoner, to keep they sorry *** though. That would be, like, $1 million every 20-25 years. Where ya see that?

Stats suck.

https://www.ccfaj.org/rr-dp-official.html

"Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present system ($137 million per year), the present system after implementation of the reforms ... ($232.7 million per year) ... and a system which imposes a maximum penalty of lifetime incarceration instead of the death penalty ($11.5 million)." - 2008

 

[sirkickyass]

I spoze if I axxed 1,000 peoples to guess a number between 1 and 100, they would all "guess" 13, eh, Kicky?

"The current medical consensus is that life does survive, for a period of roughly thirteen seconds, varying slightly depending on the victim's build, health and the immediate circumstances of the decapitation. The simple act of removing a head from a body is not what kills the brain, rather, it is the lack of oxygen and other important chemicals provided in the bloodstream....the second question is 'how long does the victim remain aware?' While the brain remains chemically alive, consciousness can cease immediately, caused by the loss of blood pressure...If that weren't to happen immediately, an individual could in theory remain self-aware for part of the thirteen-second period."

LINK

Pure speculation, ya figure?

All completely irrelevant to the question as to whether or not the guillotine is painful.

 

[Hopper]

Stats suck.

https://www.ccfaj.org/rr-dp-official.html

Hmm, that site don't really take me to nuthin, but it does have a "download report" thang to click there, so I done clicked on it. So far, I seen this:

"A performance audit report prepared for the State of Kansas in 2003 compared the average cost of
cases in which a death sentence was imposed ($1.2 million) with the average cost of murder cases in which the death penalty was not sought ($.7 million)."

I aint so good at no math, er nuthin, but that seems to be an extry cost of bout half a million.

It also say this here (about California), which is just plumb stoopid:

"the Department of Corrections estimate that confinement on death row adds $90,000 per year to the cost of confinement beyond thenormal cost of $34,150."

Just cause a guy "spends" 3 million dollars for, say, a candy bar, don't mean a candy bar "costs" $3 million, see what I'm gittin at?

Why should it cost 4 times as much to keep death row guy as any other guy? Are they especially hungry, er sumthin, I wonder?

Course, either way, they aint there long.

 

[Hopper]

All completely irrelevant to the question as to whether or not the guillotine is painful.

Ya think that's the onliest question? Heh. Ya sayin if a guy loses consciousness instantly, he still feels pain, that the idea? Or is it that he might feels 2 seconds of pain, or what? Is it your position that anyone who dies with 2 seconds of pain has suffered an "inhumane" death, or what? Most non-criminals should have it so good, eh?

 

[billyshelby]

Stats suck.

https://www.ccfaj.org/rr-dp-official.html

Good find Peterz. I haven't had a chance to read it thoroughly but, unlike aint, I found the part you referred to in about 30 seconds. So abolishing the death penalty is both right AND cheaper. I would have settled for just right.

 

[sirkickyass]

Ya think that's the onliest question? Heh. Ya sayin if a guy loses consciousness instantly, he still feels pain, that the idea? Or is it that he might feels 2 seconds of pain, or what? Is it your position that anyone who dies with 2 seconds of pain has suffered an "inhumane" death, or what? Most non-criminals should have it so good, eh?

You might want to get who you're arguing with straight. My only contention in this entire thread has been that we don't know how long someone is concious after being guillotined (your own link creates a range of 0 to 13 seconds, and acknowledges the real answer is probably "it depends") or how painful it is.

I've had no part in any discussion about what is inhumane. For all you know I support capital punishment by slow drowning.

 

[Hopper]

My only contention in this entire thread has been that we don't know how long someone is concious after being guillotined (your own link creates a range of 0 to 13 seconds, and acknowledges the real answer is probably "it depends") or how painful it is.

I took (at least one of) your claim(s) to be that any estimate of how long a person is conscious is "inherently speculative," eh, Kicky?

Like, mebbe a head could lay around in a basket for a few hours, or a few days, just thinkin about it's all-in-all, er sumthin, ya know? Does your objection revolve around miliseconds, that it?

 

[Hopper]

Just cause a guy "spends" 3 million dollars for, say, a candy bar, don't mean a candy bar "costs" $3 million, see what I'm gittin at?

Why should it cost 4 times as much to keep death row guy as any other guy? Are they especially hungry, er sumthin, I wonder?

If ya aint in some wasteful, candyass state like California, but in a sensible state like Kansas, for example, thangs can be a little different, eh?:


"The costs of carrying out (i.e. incarceration and/or execution) a death sentence were about half the costs of carrying out a non-death sentence in a comparable case."

https://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

 

[sirkickyass]

 

[Hopper]

All completely irrelevant to the question as to whether or not the guillotine is painful.

The post you quoted, and are responding to, there had nuthin to do with "pain." It was addressed to the issue of what a "guess" and "speculation" is.

If ya ax me, it is just more of your sophistry; an attempt, by virtue of dubious definition, to change form into substance. Callin sumthin a "guess" don't make it a guess, and I spoze I give MD's credit for knowin a little more than you do. I didn't know that every medical diagnosis was merely a "guess," ya know?

 

[billyshelby]

You just posted a link to a website that basically obliterates any argument that the death penalty saves money. Nice work, ace.

 

[Hopper]

You just posted a link to a website that basically obliterates any argument that the death penalty saves money. Nice work, ace.

The death penalty itself don't cost nuthin--mebbe a coupla bucks for the drug. Among other things that there abolishionist site claims, for example, that: " Capital cases are far more complicated than non-capital cases. Experts will probably be needed on forensic evidence, mental health and the social history of the defendant."

Would none of that be needed if you were "merely" gunna give a guy life without parole, that it? Does a case suddenly become "more complicated" to investigate and prove depending solely on whether a prosecutor decides to seek the death penalty? If so, why should it? Is it because we will willingly give a guy life without any undue attention bein given to his guilt or innocence, that it? For someone who is concerned about not punishin the innocent, the demand should be that more care and time be spent on *every* trial, I figure.

Of course, in a lot of "life-without-parole" cases there are no costs of trial. That's because the perp cops a plea to avoid the death penalty. Indirectly, the death penalty probably saves 10 times as much as it costs to prosecute those who won't plead guilty, due to that factor.

 

[sirkickyass]

The post you quoted, and are responding to, there had nuthin to do with "pain." It was addressed to the issue of what a "guess" and "speculation" is.

If ya ax me, it is just more of your sophistry; an attempt, by virtue of dubious definition, to change form into substance. Callin sumthin a "guess" don't make it a guess, and I spoze I give MD's credit for knowin a little more than you do. I didn't know that every medical diagnosis was merely a "guess," ya know?

Aint: If you really think that even an MD can do better than a very educated guess without having some means of empirically testing individuals who have had their heads cut off I don't know what to tell you. Even your own link (which is an about.com article referencing an urbanlegends.com article which no longer exsists, hardly a medical treatise) acknowledges that medical scientists can estimate the outer boundary as "roughly thirteen seconds" and states that number is subject to fudging based upon a number of factors. As to conciousness, it really doesn't say much of anything. It might happen immediately, it might last all 13 seconds. Not exactly much more than a guess given that it leaves the whole range open.

All of this goes back to Loki's point: nobody really knows. It's probably unknowable because no one will ever be able to tell us about their sensory perception of having their head cut off.

That you would claim I'm the one engaging in "sophistry" is prepostrous. You apparently want to interrogate the definition of a "guess." I can only assume your next posts will be an attempt to debate the definition of "inherently." This is practically the definition of sophistry over what's really a pretty minor point: we don't know how painful the guillotine is or how long individuals remain concious.

 

[Scorpjazz]

Screw the humane crap anyway. That is so stupid. Make it hurt like hell and make them suffer. Mistakes happen, sad but true. Still, Im for the Death penalty. While weighing the number of innocent people put to death wrongly (very minute), also weigh the number of people murdered in places where there is no Death penalty deterent. PLEASE dont not tell me it isnt a deterent. I realize most killers will kill regardless and dont give a **** about the outcome, but there are some that think about it and I would have to believe that the number that DONT commit murder because of it outnumber the number of innocent people put to death. Of course Im sure someone will pull a stat from research done by a "totally unbiased" place like UC Berkeley to prove this false.

 

[Hopper]

we don't know how painful the guillotine is or how long individuals remain concious.

To the exact second in every case, ya mean, quibbler? Anyone who loses consciousness within two seconds of an event cannot be said to have "suffered" from it. Like my homey who cut off his own fingers, a guy who gets guillotined probably doesn't even have enough time for any sensations of "pain" to register in his consciousness.

To call an informed expert opinion a mere "guess" is indeed the epitome of "sophistry," Kicky, sorry.

If I took a tape measure and measured sumthin to the 1/16th of an inch, but could not be more precise than sayin sumthin like: It's closer to 29 feet, 6 and 5/16 inches than it is to either 1/4 or 3/8 inches, you would presumably call that a "guess."

 

[Hopper]

Scorp, you just don't seem to git it, eh? If a law, whether it's against speedin, jaywalkin, stealin, or whatever, don't 100% deter EVERYBUDDY from EVER commitin that crime, well, then, they just aint no deterrent effect whatsover, caincha see?

 

[billyshelby]

The death penalty itself don't cost nuthin--mebbe a coupla bucks for the drug. Among other things that there abolishionist site claims, for example, that: " Capital cases are far more complicated than non-capital cases. Experts will probably be needed on forensic evidence, mental health and the social history of the defendant."

Would none of that be needed if you were "merely" gunna give a guy life without parole, that it? Does a case suddenly become "more complicated" to investigate and prove depending solely on whether a prosecutor decides to seek the death penalty? If so, why should it? Is it because we will willingly give a guy life without any undue attention bein given to his guilt or innocence, that it? For someone who is concerned about not punishin the innocent, the demand should be that more care and time be spent on *every* trial, I figure.

Of course, in a lot of "life-without-parole" cases there are no costs of trial. That's because the perp cops a plea to avoid the death penalty. Indirectly, the death penalty probably saves 10 times as much as it costs to prosecute those who won't plead guilty, due to that factor.

Rather than trying to make up a world where your argument works, why don't you click on the link YOU provided to find how it really works.

 

[Hopper]

Even your own link (which is an about.com article referencing an urbanlegends.com article which no longer exsists, hardly a medical treatise) acknowledges that medical scientists can estimate the outer boundary as "roughly thirteen seconds"

Heh, just stop, eh, Kicky? The guy quotes an MD who explains: "The 13 seconds is the amount of high energy phosphates that the cytochromes in the brain have to keep going without new oxygen and glucose."

Mebbe ya just just go notify the medical community, by means of an e-mail entitled "RED ALERT TO QUACKS," that all their witch doctor talk about the amount of "high energy phosphates" which "cytochromes" have to to keep functionin without "new oxygen and glucose,"and such, is mere speculation, eh?