Looking for genuine discourse re:Jay-Z/NBA

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Not sure how you got there unless you know him personally.

The only thing I'm sure he likes is Dave Matthews Band, and that's based solely on the username.



The nature of the way society has been laid out over the course of many many generations is that your recourse for such activity is markedly different than for the reverse scenario. That's why the same actions don't carry the same implications.

Studies indicate that the assailants against a white person would almost assuredly be punished more harshly. We had a very public trial with substantial race based overtones in the last 12ish months here in the United States where outright killing a black kid for no real reason went unpunished.

If you've ever studied the history of lynching for example, a big chunk of the ritual of it was that everyone in town knew who did the lynching. It wasn't just that violence, or even-race based violence, was used it was that the activity itself was de facto condoned by law. That's about the control of power over other human beings where your life is literally worth more than theirs. And that has not really changed on a widespread policy or social level. Things are not as extreme today, but the fact of violence against people of color being condoned by law is not as far back in the past as white people like to pretend. Again, we had that very public trial in the last year and there is no real movement by any politician of note to address the extreme systemic problems that today treat black lives as less valuable than white ones. When you see people write about disenfranchisement of black voters, the incidence of black imprisonment, or the structuring of our criminal code to inherently punish, on average, people of color more harshly you're really seeing a criticism of a society that has decided those lives are worth less.

Racism as a concept isn't reducible as easily as people who want to talk about dumbass concepts like "reverse racism" think. Everything about it is contextual or metacontexual. In the Office Space parlance: going to the dictionary and looking up money laundering doesn't mean you now know a damn thing about anything.

Dave Matthews Band, you can't get any whiter than that (yes, i know they have a black person in the band).

 

[8]

It depends. With any music you can write the most basic structures, or follow the same chord progression/blueprint for a song and make it easy. Hip-hop producers like Madlib and J Dilla are extremely talented, but pretty much use sample based music to create beats, but in my eyes it's just as creative and unique.

In general, I just hate people who dismiss entire genres. Chances are you haven't explored the depths/roots/offshoots of that genre and are only commenting on the most generic version that is produced for the masses.

No I'm pretty familiar with the genre. I was speaking more about the rapper, who is usually separate from the producer. Stil, his/her name is the one most associated with the product even though they can be the least musically knowledgeable person involved with its production. That's more to what I was referring.

Yes, this can be said about every other genre also

 

[Stoked]

Not sure how you got there unless you know him personally.

The only thing I'm sure he likes is Dave Matthews Band, and that's based solely on the username.



The nature of the way society has been laid out over the course of many many generations is that your recourse for such activity is markedly different than for the reverse scenario. That's why the same actions don't carry the same implications.

Studies indicate that the assailants against a white person would almost assuredly be punished more harshly. We had a very public trial with substantial race based overtones in the last 12ish months here in the United States where outright killing a black kid for no real reason went unpunished.

If you've ever studied the history of lynching for example, a big chunk of the ritual of it was that everyone in town knew who did the lynching. It wasn't just that violence, or even-race based violence, was used it was that the activity itself was de facto condoned by law. That's about the control of power over other human beings where your life is literally worth more than theirs. And that has not really changed on a widespread policy or social level. Things are not as extreme today, but the fact of violence against people of color being condoned by law is not as far back in the past as white people like to pretend. Again, we had that very public trial in the last year and there is no real movement by any politician of note to address the extreme systemic problems that today treat black lives as less valuable than white ones. When you see people write about disenfranchisement of black voters, the incidence of black imprisonment, or the structuring of our criminal code to inherently punish, on average, people of color more harshly you're really seeing a criticism of a society that has decided those lives are worth less.

Racism as a concept isn't reducible as easily as people who want to talk about dumbass concepts like "reverse racism" think. Everything about it is contextual or metacontexual. In the Office Space parlance: going to the dictionary and looking up money laundering doesn't mean you now know a damn thing about anything.

I fully acknowledge that the average member of a minority experiences racism in a much more effecting way in their day to day live, as well as dramtic incidences of violence, than I do. No contest.

One Brow, however, has clearly stated that racism can only go one way. I completely disagree. Clearly it tilts far more heavily one way than it does the other but that doesn't excuse the less effecting racism going the other way.

 

[Stoked]

Unless someone else is typing his posts, he does have some.



I have already agreed that as a lone item, it would have been insufficient.



I know, but you're getting closer, step by step. Would you like me to spell it out again?

No, you have done so enough times for me to regect, outright, your claim that racism is only one way.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

No I'm pretty familiar with the genre. I was speaking more about the rapper, who is usually separate from the producer. Stil, his/her name is the one most associated with the product even though they can be the least musically knowledgeable person involved with its production. That's more to what I was referring.

Yes, this can be said about every other genre also

Yeah, you can be rapper and have no musical (instrumental) ability, but still, being able to rap in different cadences/flows/speeds/breath control/etc. is a very difficult thing to do. Nearly every mainstream artist has real basic flows, but listen to a guy like Andre 3000, his mouth is a musical instrument within itself.

 

[8]

Yeah, you can be rapper and have no musical (instrumental) ability, but still, being able to rap in different cadences/flows/speeds/breath control/etc. is a very difficult thing to do. Nearly every mainstream artist has real basic flows, but listen to a guy like Andre 3000, his mouth is a musical instrument within itself.

Obvi

Have to have some sense of rhythm to be an adept rapper.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I fully acknowledge that the average member of a minority experiences racism in a much more effecting way in their day to day live, as well as dramtic incidences of violence, than I do. No contest.

One Brow, however, has clearly stated that racism can only go one way. I completely disagree. Clearly it tilts far more heavily one way than it does the other but that doesn't excuse the less effecting racism going the other way.

Genuinely confused as to what you mean when you say this.

Racism will never go away. Ideally, we want all racism to be as insignificant as racism against white people is. That would be an awesome world to live in. You can't get any lower than that level though.

 

[Stoked]

Genuinely confused as to what you mean when you say this.

Racism will never go away. Ideally, we want all racism to be as insignificant as racism against white people is. That would be an awesome world to live in. You can't get any lower than that level though.

Racism will never go away becuas ehate will never go away.

But One Brow has explicitly said that racism agaisnt whites is not racism. I disagree. Just because a minority suffers racism, and they do, does not excuse racism towards whites.

Racism is never justifiable.

Switch this up with any dynamic in any other country.

 

[sirkickyass]

Dave Matthews Band, you can't get any whiter than that (yes, i know they have a black person in the band).

I think there's more than one (reaching back in my memory I'm remembering the drummer and the horn player).

Virtually all uniquely American contributions to music stem in some way from African American experience. Jazz, Blues, Rock, Hip-Hop. It's all intertwined with black experience. That's inescapable and undebatable.

Claims that sample based work isn't music aren't even really worth discussing. I can't even imagine how someone like Rob or Lazy D would distinguish the "musical complexity" or the level of musical knowledge required of Dave Matthews Band with Girl Talk (entirely sample based) or a DJ like Gramatik.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH_kPMT9Enw&feature=kp

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Racism will never go away becuas ehate will never go away.

But One Brow has explicitly said that racism agaisnt whites is not racism. I disagree. Just because a minority suffers racism, and they do, does not excuse racism towards whites.

Racism is never justifiable.

Switch this up with any dynamic in any other country.

Sounds like y'all are just disagreeing with wording, or the definition of racism, rather than the actual ideas you are expressing.

 

[moevillini]

Stoked, what was the last musical genre you felt was so unmusical you needed to call it "music" instead of music?

careful, I think this question might be a "trap"

 

[Stoked]

Sounds like y'all are just disagreeing with wording, or the definition of racism, rather than the actual ideas you are expressing.

I disagree that racism is one way. I disagree that any of us truly have enough info about anyone else on here to label true accusations of racism. I disagree with how some people are presenting their message then belittling others, sometimes this applies to myself (I'll be honest), then attacking them for a natural and logical reaction to that.

I do however agree, that the over all racism experienced by whites is not on the same level, in depth, violence and social disjustice, as with minorities. Speaking on our society. Cannot speak on other societies

But yes tehre are underlying agreements.

 

[moevillini]

...I'll let you do your own reading and research on the origin of Hip-Hop, but the act of rapping over beatboxing or samples/loops isn't for lack of skill to play an instrument but because the artists couldn't afford the instruments so they used their bodies.

bringing this back to basketball and music and entertainment, do y'all have Bucket Boys who perform during half-time shows at Jazz games?

They're great!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcBFrr4Mv9U

 

[Stoked]

I have gone to two Jazz games and there was a performance similar to that at one of them. No idea if it was the Bucket Boys though..

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I disagree that racism is one way. I disagree that any of us truly have enough info about anyone else on here to label true accusations of racism. I disagree with how some people are presenting their message then belittling others, sometimes this applies to myself (I'll be honest), then attacking them for a natural and logical reaction to that.

I do however agree, that the over all racism experienced by whites is not on the same level, in depth, violence and social disjustice, as with minorities. Speaking on our society. Cannot speak on other societies

But yes tehre are underlying agreements.

Have you ever actually been legitimately offended by someone being racist towards you as a white person?

Does someone calling you "cracker" or "white boy" actually have any effect on you?

 

[moevillini]

Moe: This entire thread, including but not limited to its deliberate mirroring of the structure of a different thread title, is designed to be diversionary to the real issue related to racism in the news....

actually, I think it was a rather brilliant move by Dutch to start this thread - it's far from being diversionary to the issues related to racism regarding the NBA and Donald Sterling - this thread and the discussion it's brought about seem more like a head-on collision with those issues to me.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Have you ever actually been legitimately offended by someone being racist towards you as a white person?

Does someone calling you "cracker" or "white boy" actually have any effect on you?

I know this is not directed to me... but I'm skipping the 50 other posts I thought about responding to from various people.

A black person calling a white person "cracker" or "white boy" has exactly the same effect on the white person as a white person calling a black person a similar thing.
The effect is whatever the person being called the name lets it be.
Both are equally offensive assuming all are strangers in each scenario.

If I am with one of my black friends and we are joking around those things could be said with zero offense being taken on either side because we both know for a fact we are just screwing around.

This did not happen to me, but to a relative.
He was walking down the street in a mostly black neighborhood when 6 black guys on bikes rode past, and just as they got past the last one called out "kill that white boy".
They all turned around their bikes, but luckily my relative was a fast runner and adept at jumping fences.
Based on his other experiences there he has no doubt he would have been hospitalized or dead if he did not get away.

Is that not racist because it was directed at a white person? @Onebrow your one way street racism argument is crap, a whole load of crap.

Onebrow. Why don't you tell us of your racism experiences. You seem to ask a lot, but are pretty tight lipped about yourself. Do tell.

 

[Stoked]

Have you ever actually been legitimately offended by someone being racist towards you as a white person?

Does someone calling you "cracker" or "white boy" actually have any effect on you?

Yes I have been.

No I am not offended by cracker, normally. Doesn't make it right or excusable though.

 

[franklin]

I know this is not directed to me... but I'm skipping the 50 other posts I thought about responding to from various people.

A black person calling a white person "cracker" or "white boy" has exactly the same effect on the white person as a white person calling a black person a similar thing.
The effect is whatever the person being called the name lets it be.
Both are equally offensive assuming all are strangers in each scenario.

If I am with one of my black friends and we are joking around those things could be said with zero offense being taken on either side because we both know for a fact we are just screwing around.

This did not happen to me, but to a relative.
He was walking down the street in a mostly black neighborhood when 6 black guys on bikes rode past, and just as they got past the last one called out "kill that white boy".
They all turned around their bikes, but luckily my relative was a fast runner and adept at jumping fences.
Based on his other experiences there he has no doubt he would have been hospitalized or dead if he did not get away.

Is that not racist because it was directed at a white person? @Onebrow your one way street racism argument is crap, a whole load of crap.

Onebrow. Why don't you tell us of your racism experiences. You seem to ask a lot, but are pretty tight lipped about yourself. Do tell.

You need stories about racism against black Americans for validation?

 

[[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]]

Sure, pick something out to redirect the conversation as you please... Purely a reference to my personal musical preferences, nothing more.

How about you take a stab at answering my direct question about why racism only applies for victims who are African Americans? I'm genuinely interested to hear your explanation.

Clearly this guy has earned every one of those 15 rep power points in his 55 total messages. The alt investigation should be pretty simple here.