Looking for genuine discourse re:Jay-Z/NBA

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Holy ****, I couldn't even make it to the bottom of the 4th page. This is one of the worst threads in the history of jazzfanz. There's a solid percentage of dudes around here who are top-shelf douchewads.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

You need stories about racism against black Americans for validation?

Nope. Just asking Onebrow to do the same service he is asking of others. Just curious.

Thanks for asking though. If I wanted stories from random people I'd google them.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Clearly this guy has earned every one of those 15 rep power points in his 55 total messages. The alt investigation should be pretty simple here.

you get rep power for how long you've been on the board.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Claims that sample based work isn't music aren't even really worth discussing.

LazyD never said this

I can't even imagine how someone like Rob or Lazy D would distinguish the "musical complexity" or the level of musical knowledge required of Dave Matthews Band with Girl Talk (entirely sample based) or a DJ like Gramatik.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH_kPMT9Enw&feature=kp

Seeing as I'm pretty sure LazyD's full-time job is involved with music, the common layman would side with his opinion over an attorney's.

 

[Deleted member 848]

A few things:

- it's hard to distinguish Rob's exact perception of hip-hop in his post that everyone jumped on. While there is not a 0% chance that his perception of rap music isn't tethered to his perception of black culture, I really think Kicky is stretching things with the assaults he's laid on him. The notion of calling rap music "music" as being tied completely to racism is a laughable one, in my opinion. There are several things in rap music that could put off any person-- some are tied to black culture, some are not.
- Yes, the notion of rap not being music is laughable, and uneducated. But that isn't what many are arguing here. Saying rap music isn't music makes you an idiot-- but does it make you a racist? Personally, I don't think there is enough there to slam Rob with the label.
- Rap music ****ing owns, and whoever doesn't dig it can literally punch rocks. Black people are probably the best thing that has ever happened to popular music (and music altogether, arguably).

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

A few things:

- it's hard to distinguish Rob's exact perception of hip-hop in his post that everyone jumped on. While there is not a 0% chance that his perception of rap music isn't tethered to his perception of black culture, I really think Kicky is stretching things with the assaults he's laid on him. The notion of calling rap music "music" as being tied completely to racism is a laughable one, in my opinion. There are several things in rap music that could put off any person-- some are tied to black culture, some are not.
- Yes, the notion of rap not being music is laughable, and uneducated. But that isn't what many are arguing here. Saying rap music isn't music makes you an idiot-- but does it make you a racist? Personally, I don't think there is enough there to slam Rob with the label.
- Rap music ****ing owns, and whoever doesn't dig it can literally punch rocks. Black people are probably the best thing that has ever happened to popular music (and music altogether, arguably).

Lol punch rocks. Way more painful than kicking rocks tbh.

 

[8]

I think there's more than one (reaching back in my memory I'm remembering the drummer and the horn player).

Virtually all uniquely American contributions to music stem in some way from African American experience. Jazz, Blues, Rock, Hip-Hop. It's all intertwined with black experience. That's inescapable and undebatable.

Claims that sample based work isn't music aren't even really worth discussing. I can't even imagine how someone like Rob or Lazy D would distinguish the "musical complexity" or the level of musical knowledge required of Dave Matthews Band with Girl Talk (entirely sample based) or a DJ like Gramatik.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KH_kPMT9Enw&feature=kp

Never claimed it wasn't music. Just pointing out you may not need as much musical knowledge and ability as one would think. And, as and I many others pointed out, this is true for many genres.

I'd be all for discussing musical complexity, but it'd be kind of pointless because the conversation would be much too complex for you

 

[One Brow]

No, you have done so enough times for me to regect, outright, your claim that racism is only one way.

Well, if you understand why both are true and not contradictory, you have made progress after all.

 

[One Brow]

careful, I think this question might be a "trap"

Well, I supposedly devote entire threads to that. However, I would have been surprised if Stoked's answer was anything other than 'never'.

 

[Stoked]

Well, if you understand why both are true and not contradictory, you have made progress after all.

Or again, perhaps you have just come to understand my position better and your initial assumptions based on my race where incorrect.

 

[One Brow]

This did not happen to me, but to a relative.
He was walking down the street in a mostly black neighborhood when 6 black guys on bikes rode past, and just as they got past the last one called out "kill that white boy".
They all turned around their bikes, but luckily my relative was a fast runner and adept at jumping fences.
Based on his other experiences there he has no doubt he would have been hospitalized or dead if he did not get away.

You know, a co-worker of mine was closing up the fence last year by himself, when two black men came out of nowhere behind him. It was very threatening. Then, as he was pulling away, they completely disappeared. It was like they had ghost powers. He's completely convinced this is what happened, so now we have a rule that there always have to be two people locking up. The utter ridiculousness of people vanishing into and out of existence makes no difference; he knows what he saw.

Is that not racist because it was directed at a white person?

I find it much more likely that the incident, if it happened at all, has been blown way out of proportion by some fear-soaked white man. I've seen a lot more of that gangs of kids on bikes deciding to kill some stranger. Not that I think your relative is lying; I'm sure they believe that's what happened.

@Onebrow your one way street racism argument is crap, a whole load of crap.

I'm aware that's your opinion.

Onebrow. Why don't you tell us of your racism experiences. You seem to ask a lot, but are pretty tight lipped about yourself. Do tell.

Grade school principals who suspend the black kid in a fight with the white kid, but not the white kid. An award given to the white kid in English, when a black kid was clearly a better student. Locker room jokes whites told in high school. Amazement that someone could live "downtown" with so many black people around. It's been obvious in dozens of job interviews. Black people on the internet at work are lazy; whites are not being challenged enough. White people miss deadlines; black people can't do the job. Black people being questioned by the police when the white person in the group is ignored. How many more instances do you want?

 

[One Brow]

You need stories about racism against black Americans for validation?

Well, he asked me. I think dalamon's post happened when he was out. Someone told him, right?

 

[One Brow]

- Yes, the notion of rap not being music is laughable, and uneducated. But that isn't what many are arguing here. Saying rap music isn't music makes you an idiot-- but does it make you a racist? Personally, I don't think there is enough there to slam Rob with the label.

No one has relied on just that item to come their conclusion, either.

 

[One Brow]

Or again, perhaps you have just come to understand my position better and your initial assumptions based on my race where incorrect.

Three years ago you would have, and did, say the two positions were contradictory. Now you understand they are not. Your understanding has has changed. Has my understanding changed? Of course. We all change over time. So, why are you so insistent on the connotation that you have not?

 

[Stoked]

Three years ago you would have, and did, say the two positions were contradictory. Now you understand they are not. Your understanding has has changed. Has my understanding changed? Of course. We all change over time. So, why are you so insistent on the connotation that you have not?

I've barely been here two years.

SMH.

Racism goes both ways despite your absurd assertion that it does not. Your claim that all people are racist fully supports this.

Yet you are claiming that while racist on entire segment of the population cannot commit racism. Obviously that cannot work.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

You know, a co-worker of mine was closing up the fence last year by himself, when two black men came out of nowhere behind him. It was very threatening. Then, as he was pulling away, they completely disappeared. It was like they had ghost powers. He's completely convinced this is what happened, so now we have a rule that there always have to be two people locking up. The utter ridiculousness of people vanishing into and out of existence makes no difference; he knows what he saw.

I find it much more likely that the incident, if it happened at all, has been blown way out of proportion by some fear-soaked white man. I've seen a lot more of that gangs of kids on bikes deciding to kill some stranger. Not that I think your relative is lying; I'm sure they believe that's what happened.

That's a nice story and attempt to laugh it off. So now you are calling my relative a liar or someone with an imagination. figures, I actually expected this from you.
Not that it will matter to you but in his story he was with someone that was also white and in decent shape to get away. I left it out because it doesn't really affect the point, but since you seem to be calling bs on it... there.

I don't care if you believe me or him, but your attempt to marginalize his experience is typical of you. This relative has lived in many multicultural places and is not "afraid of a black man" as you seem to be implying.

I'm aware that's your opinion.

Good, and I'm aware of yours.

Grade school principals who suspend the black kid in a fight with the white kid, but not the white kid. An award given to the white kid in English, when a black kid was clearly a better student. Locker room jokes whites told in high school. Amazement that someone could live "downtown" with so many black people around. It's been obvious in dozens of job interviews. Black people on the internet at work are lazy; whites are not being challenged enough. White people miss deadlines; black people can't do the job. Black people being questioned by the police when the white person in the group is ignored. How many more instances do you want?

Sounds similar to something I posted a little while back, that you called fluff with no real substance.

I was just curious. Anything involving you, or just other people?

 

[Willie]

It seems to me that the misunderstanding happening between the two factions in this thread come down the historical sense of the concept "racism." Those board members who have that stubborn strain of libertarianism and/or cynicism over the social work of correcting systematic abuse want to shrink that historical sense to zero. The other camp asks for the recognition of a racism that has been shaped by knowable forces, the correction of which takes time, effort, and (obviously) an insistence on a certain historical memory.

I always distrust a libertarianism that demands we speak of things on a dramatically reduced historical scale. It's a meak way of looking at people and processes -- and is bad for spiritual health.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I find it much more likely that the incident, if it happened at all, has been blown way out of proportion by some fear-soaked white man. I've seen a lot more of that gangs of kids on bikes deciding to kill some stranger. Not that I think your relative is lying; I'm sure they believe that's what happened.

I find it interesting that you think white people blow stuff out of proportion because they are "fear-soaked white man" yet much of what you claim can be dismissed in exactly the same manner by some "racism seeking (insert Onebrow's minority of choice) man".

Racism is out there. It is a two way street. It is less and less as the years go by, and even today I think it is only small groups of people that focus on it and make it a big deal. I don't think everyone is a racist.
It's terrible for those that still have to deal with it, it's sad and disturbing regarding those that practice and/or teach it.

We need to treat all people with respect.

People acting in a racist manner will not help.

Neither will calling non racist people racists and claiming it's fine because if they are not they will be ok with it but if they are... haha.. gotcha.

When we are closing up fences we need to make sure the racists that were behind us as we did so, but then disappeared into thin air don't mess with our heads.

Some of you have stated we can't forget about history and what has gone on... no we cannot and we definitely cannot repeat it or anything close to it. That is not the issue being debated here. Nobody has said racism isn't out there, or racism isn't bad. Some tend to think racism is only racism if it's coming from the race with the largest numbers or dominance. I deny that and say it goes both ways even if not on the same level of magnitude.

We also cannot turn this into a "boy who called racist" story, because then who will believe us when for once it actually is true?

There are a couple of fundamental differences between what I believe racism is and what One Brow believes racism is.
1- racism can only be from the dominant race to a minority race vs racism can go both ways
2- racism can exist in a person without them knowing it vs racism has to be the intent in some way otherwise it is something else

Did I miss any differences One Brow, or is it just those two?

/rant

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Just a thought. "Black people" in the US can also be categorized not simply as a term for the social concept of "race," which doesn't exist biologically, but by heritage/ethnicity, a much more tangible term. The general difference in phenotype with that ethnicity and history is why this thread exists. With that in mind, One Brow's constant preference of the emic while dismissing the etic is quite off putting in the grand scheme of things, as the emic approach offers no true solutions to any particular problem.

 

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It seems to me that the misunderstanding happening between the two factions in this thread come down the historical sense of the concept "racism." Those board members who have that stubborn strain of libertarianism and/or cynicism over the social work of correcting systematic abuse want to shrink that historical sense to zero. The other camp asks for the recognition of a racism that has been shaped by knowable forces, the correction of which takes time, effort, and (obviously) an insistence on a certain historical memory.

I always distrust a libertarianism that demands we speak of things on a dramatically reduced historical scale. It's a meak way of looking at people and processes -- and is bad for spiritual health.

Willie has put together a nice little run of posts...

I hope to add to / clarify what you're saying by pointing out that when you reduce the historical sense of any concept to zero, then all you're left with is a principle sans context. In other words, via this process, demagogues find new tools for persuasion and assholes find different rationales for being assholes.