Trey Burke... Keep or trade?

[fishonjazz]

Trey was a rookie with a significant injury if not the whole year the majority of it. And while he played starter mins the system didn't play to his strengths. I understand Alec has become something of a folk hero around this forum, and I agree his situation hasn't been ideal. However saying you can have a better feel for Trey without a full off-season to train like a pro than Alec after two full off-seasons of training like a pro is illogical.

I get your point but with trey i think there are certain built in limitations that he has that will most likely (although not certainly) hold him back. (His size, speed, athleticism, strength)


Now that Alec's shot has started to come around, i dont see anything that should hold him back..... any holes in his game can be fixed imo..... or schemed to hide (Basically getting lost on defense and struggling with screens)

 

[Sexual Favors]

you are judging him off of basically one year of decent minutes off the bench on a tanking team with a lame duck coach.

I dont think you, me, or anyone knows what burks will be as a finished product.

I think we know much more about what favors, hayward, kanter, and even trey will be than we do alec

I agreed with everything, except for your ridiculous assertion about knowing more about Kanter than we do about Alec. We don't know nearly enough about either player (but we know enough to extend them and not get put in Hayward situation again).

Alec has played more minutes than Kanter in the NBA, had a much more consitant and defined role last year than Kanter, played two years of college etc.

As for Kanter, no college, a couple hubdred fewer NBA minutes, minutes in NBA have always been sporatic (at least Alec was 6th man last year. Kanter went from 3rd man to 10th man, and then back again). Big man develop at a slower rate. Kanter is younger by almost a whole year. He lost last offseason, etc. No, we are definitely more aware of who Alec is.

BUT, there is still a lot more to learn about each.

However he is not a good defender despite his physical tools. He is an average to below average playermaker for a guard.

Defense is often lost on younger players, unless they aren't offensively gifted (because then it is usually the reason why they are in the NBA, to overcompensate). Burks has the speed and length to defend (6'6" w/ a 6'10" wingspan is great for SG), but his angles for closing out on perimeter are too diaganol (which is coachable!!!)

As for his below average playmaking, how so? Burks was our only player who could effectively create his own offens continuously (unless the floor was hopelessly clogged). Are you talking about facilitating? He's not elite, but a 16.9 AST % isn't that bad. Darozen is 18.9

 

[Coach Ellis]

I get your point but with trey i think there are certain built in limitations that he has that will most likely (although not certainly) hold him back. (His size, speed, athleticism, strength)

I'm hoping that Exum is the Alpha Dog that he was drafted to be and he ends up starting at the PG position. I think that his potential to physically dominate smaller guards would make that his best position moving forward.

I also think that you keep Burke and play him off the bench and in combo with Exum and Burks.

Having two young, starter quality PGs running the offense at all times makes a lot of sense when you consider how important the PG is in a P&R heavy offense. Especially at what Burke is going to cost.

Best case scenario is that Exum lights it up early and often and forces his way into the starting lineup. Burke fills in for him off the bench and there's not a significant drop-off in production since Trey will be matching up against many 2nd unit players. His contract isn't bad and he has leadership qualities that I'd love to see coming off the bench. I think that he'd be a guy who would force other bench guys to play up to their potential. Give me Gobert, Tomic, Evans, Hood, Burks and Burke off the bench. . . that gives the coaching staff some great rotation potential. Much better depth than they had last year with Marvin, Jefferson (even though those two were starters and getting too many minutes, I still consider them depth players), Biedrins, Rush, JLIII and Garrett.

 

[fishonjazz]

I agreed with everything, except for your ridiculous assertion about knowing more about Kanter than we do about Alec. We don't know nearly enough about either player (but we know enough to extend them and not get put in Hayward situation again).

Alec has played more minutes than Kanter in the NBA, had a much more consitant and defined role last year than Kanter, played two years of college etc.

As for Kanter, no college, a couple hubdred fewer NBA minutes, minutes in NBA have always been sporatic (at least Alec was 6th man last year. Kanter went from 3rd man to 10th man, and then back again). Big man develop at a slower rate. Kanter is younger by almost a whole year. He lost last offseason, etc. No, we are definitely more aware of who Alec is.

I just think that kanter is not anywhere near elite at anything and, like trey, has physical limitations...... also he is not really a forward or center.

You are right about us not having seen kanter as much though

 

[Sexual Favors]

I just think that kanter is not anywhere near elite at anything and, like trey, has physical limitations...... also he is not really a forward or center.

You are right about us not having seen kanter as much though

Kanter has far more physical gifts than limitations. A 6'11" big, big man who has a true post game, but can also shoot it could be considered "elite" in and of itself. Is he developed? No. But that versatility is RARE.

Also, check out the offensive rebounder list:
https://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/rebounds/sort/avgOffensiveRebounds

Kanter's ranking on that is even more impressive when you look at the ORB% at Basketball reference. Kanter's ORB% is 11.6, which is the same as Joakim Noah, who is ranked as the 4th best offensive rebounder in the league. Pretty damn good. May even say that is an elite skill he has.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kanteen01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/noahjo01.html

 

[da ThRONe]

I get your point but with trey i think there are certain built in limitations that he has that will most likely (although not certainly) hold him back. (His size, speed, athleticism, strength)


Now that Alec's shot has started to come around, i dont see anything that should hold him back..... any holes in his game can be fixed imo..... or schemed to hide (Basically getting lost on defense and struggling with screens)

1st I think the concerns about Burke's athleticism is vastly overrated. He's on par athletically with Chris Paul and Kyle Lowry two of the top 12 PG's in the league.

As far as strength Trey will get stronger that's almost a lock and likely quicker, and more explosive although more minimal than anything. As for speed Burke has plenty of speed. Of course Trey was never going to be great due to his overpowering physical gifts. Much like the aforementioned Paul Burke will be a guy that uses skill and craftiness if he's going to be really good to great. To me skill players or harder to gauge than guys who rely on physical gifts.

 

[Sexual Favors]

^

Trey Burke is not on par athletically with CP3 or Lowry. Trey has zero first step. I don't know Lowry's vert #'s, but I do know CP3 jumps higher than Trey did by a couple of inches on each one, etc.

 

[da ThRONe]

I'm hoping that Exum is the Alpha Dog that he was drafted to be and he ends up starting at the PG position. I think that his potential to physically dominate smaller guards would make that his best position moving forward.

I also think that you keep Burke and play him off the bench and in combo with Exum and Burks.

Having two young, starter quality PGs running the offense at all times makes a lot of sense when you consider how important the PG is in a P&R heavy offense. Especially at what Burke is going to cost.

Best case scenario is that Exum lights it up early and often and forces his way into the starting lineup. Burke fills in for him off the bench and there's not a significant drop-off in production since Trey will be matching up against many 2nd unit players. His contract isn't bad and he has leadership qualities that I'd love to see coming off the bench. I think that he'd be a guy who would force other bench guys to play up to their potential. Give me Gobert, Tomic, Evans, Hood, Burks and Burke off the bench. . . that gives the coaching staff some great rotation potential. Much better depth than they had last year with Marvin, Jefferson (even though those two were starters and getting too many minutes, I still consider them depth players), Biedrins, Rush, JLIII and Garrett.

Maybe you should wait and see Exum against other NBA players before claiming he's the greater option over Burke. Let's not forget Burke was drafted to be an "Alpha Dog" just the year before. That situation will work it self out, but I don't see any reason to assume Dante will be a better PG or player than Trey. Both have some serious issues they'll need to work tirelessly to overcome.

 

[fishonjazz]

Let's not forget Burke was drafted to be an "Alpha Dog" just the year before.

I disagree.

Burke was drafted because we really really needed a point guard and last years draft was horrible so we felt we had to move up to even get any quality with our pick..... and from what i hear, corbin loved him

 

[Stifle Tower]

I disagree.

Burke was drafted because we really really needed a point guard and last years draft was horrible so we felt we had to move up to even get any quality with our pick..... and from what i hear, corbin loved him

Regardless of the Corbin part, I think the Jazz would have looked to trade up for Burke or MCW. Greatest position of need was PG and there really was no BPA anywhere in the draft. 2013 might go down as one of the all-time worsts. At least DL was able to draft a serviceable player in Trey and perhaps the steal of the draft in Gobert.

 

[da ThRONe]

^

Trey Burke is not on par athletically with CP3 or Lowry. Trey has zero first step. I don't know Lowry's vert #'s, but I do know CP3 jumps higher than Trey did by a couple of inches on each one, etc.

Those testing are not even worth talking about unless you believe Cody Zellers has more hops than Blake Griffin. The athletic testing in the combines are a terrible way of gauging athleticism.

I've watch both Paul and Burke collegiate and pro careers. Burke and Paul are very similar athletically. I'd give Chris a slight advantage, but Trey's certainly on par with Paul.

No first step? If anything it's Trey 2nd and 3rd steps where he doesn't create great separation like some of the quicker guards. Paul has the same problem creating great separation. Paul is just so skilled as a passer and shooter he doesn't need to create a great deal of space to be great.

 

[da ThRONe]

I disagree.

Burke was drafted because we really really needed a point guard and last years draft was horrible so we felt we had to move up to even get any quality with our pick..... and from what i hear, corbin loved him

I guess we may have a disconnect in the term Alpha dog. I assumed he meant the guy running the team.

 

[fishonjazz]

Regardless of the Corbin part, I think the Jazz would have looked to trade up for Burke or MCW. Greatest position of need was PG and there really was no BPA anywhere in the draft. 2013 might go down as one of the all-time worsts. At least DL was able to draft a serviceable player in Trey and perhaps the steal of the draft in Gobert.

I agree.

I think we did well last year in the draft.... and still believe treys ceiling to be very low

 

[Coach Ellis]

Maybe you should wait and see Exum against other NBA players before claiming he's the greater option over Burke. Let's not forget Burke was drafted to be an "Alpha Dog" just the year before. That situation will work it self out, but I don't see any reason to assume Dante will be a better PG or player than Trey. Both have some serious issues they'll need to work tirelessly to overcome.

I don't disagree with your POV, except to point out that I wasn't proclaiming him anything yet. I'm hopeful that he becomes the type of All-Star player that many think he is capable of being down the road. As a long-time football coach, I love competition on my team. I love to have kids fighting for jobs and playing time because it keeps the whole team sharp when they have to fight for every snap. Regardless of who starts, I want to keep both guys as long as it's financially responsible to do so.

I'm hoping that Exum is the Alpha Dog that he was drafted to be and he ends up starting at the PG position. I think that his potential to physically dominate smaller guards would make that his best position moving forward.

I also think that you keep Burke if Exum outplays him for the starting job and play him off the bench and in combo with Exum and Burks.

Having two young, starter quality PGs running the offense at all times makes a lot of sense when you consider how important the PG is in a P&R heavy offense. Especially at what Burke is going to cost.

Best case scenario is that Exum lights it up early and often and forces his way into the starting lineup. Burke fills in for him off the bench and there's not a significant drop-off in production since Trey will be matching up against many 2nd unit players. His contract isn't bad and he has leadership qualities that I'd love to see coming off the bench. I think that he'd be a guy who would force other bench guys to play up to their potential. Give me Gobert, Tomic, Evans, Hood, Burks and Burke off the bench. . . that gives the coaching staff some great rotation potential. Much better depth than they had last year with Marvin, Jefferson (even though those two were starters and getting too many minutes, I still consider them depth players), Biedrins, Rush, JLIII and Garrett.

Here's my post. I bolded key points about what my hope for him is, and added a clarifying point in red. I never said that he was better, just that I hope he becomes a better PG than Trey and earns a job in the starting lineup. IMO, he's a combo guard who likes to slash, drive to the hoop and then either finish himself for kick out to an open shooter. Adjusting to a P&R heavy offense will be a challenge for a young player like him, as will jumping up several levels of competition. Only they know, but I think that it's not unreasonable for the Jazz front office and coaching staff to hope that he becomes the team's #1 star player. Many people thought he was a top 3 pick in a really strong draft.

I guess we may have a disconnect in the term Alpha dog. I assumed he meant the guy running the team.

That's pretty much what I meant. I really think that Dante was drafted to be that guy down the road and I think that his ceiling is much higher than Trey's is as a starting PG. For that reason, I hope that Dante Exum looks great as a PG and forces his way into the starting lineup. I love Trey Burke's swagger and confidence and I think that he would be great off the bench and a mismatch for the Jazz if that rotation becomes a reality. I just think that it's the best case scenario for the starting lineup if Dante Exum plays like the stud he was drafted to be sooner as opposed to later. I certainly don't want anything handed to him. I want him to work his *** off and earn it.

 

[MoTappin]

Cannot believe anyone would trade Trey right now. Runner up to ROY and clutch as can be. We are quick to agree
that Corbin was clueless.... Why would we part with a good, potentially really good young PG?

Exum and Burke is our backcourt for the next 5 years

This.

 

[[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]]

I wonder if Trey will get a tattoo that says "Backup" or something like that. Maybe he could get R-I-D-E P-I-N-E across his knuckles. That'd be badass.

 

[franklin]

Kanter has far more physical gifts than limitations. A 6'11" big, big man who has a true post game, but can also shoot it could be considered "elite" in and of itself. Is he developed? No. But that versatility is RARE.

Also, check out the offensive rebounder list:
https://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/rebounds/sort/avgOffensiveRebounds

Kanter's ranking on that is even more impressive when you look at the ORB% at Basketball reference. Kanter's ORB% is 11.6, which is the same as Joakim Noah, who is ranked as the 4th best offensive rebounder in the league. Pretty damn good. May even say that is an elite skill he has.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kanteen01.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/noahjo01.html

Why doesn't he show up when you filter by RP48 or TRB%?

 

[Sexual Favors]

Why doesn't he show up when you filter by RP48 or TRB%?

Dunno. That's a question for someone from Basketball-reference, but the stat I referenced is accurate. Check the links and scroll down to "Advanced" on each link for each player. Last year, their ORB% was identical (as was Zach Randolph's).