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Omnibus Gordon Hayward Thread (To clean up the Board some)

Biggest concern with Matching for Hayward

My biggest concern with signing Hayward is the vision of the organization.v I’ve yet to hear an explanation that calms my doubts. Let’s throw the facts out there:

Last season was one of the worst seasons EVER as a jazz fan. The team was atrocious and unbearable to watch. No one was consistently performing throughout the year. How does signing a member of said team to a max deal help us going forward in our goal of contending for the title? I will use the AK47 reference as an example. The Jazz went from pretenders to contenders in the span of 2 years. TWO YEARS! In the 2004-2005 season, AK47 had a year of inflated stats as the versatile, #1 point forward option (Boozer was hurt that year and didn’t play), leading the jazz to a 26-56 record. What did the jazz do as a reward for one of the worst records in the NBA? They gave AK the max. (Any of this sound familiar??) The jazz draft a top prospect in D Will the following year (Just like we drafted Exum this year), and in the 2nd year of AK’s MAX contract, the Jazz were title contenders. It happened THAT fast. No one thought the jazz would be contenders that soon. And EVERYONE thought that AK would be leading the team following his max deal. NO ONE predicted his production to drop that fast, naturally turning into the #4 option on the team. During the following years, the jazz were always hamstringed by AK’s contract and didn’t have flexibility to acquire necessary pieces to get over the hump. Who is to say that in two years the jazz aren’t title contenders? Who is to say that G Time doesn’t organically become the team’s 3rd or 4th option again? The jazz aren’t winning a title with Gordon as a #1 option, so why match? Why is letting him go and waiting a bad idea? If we let AK go that year, it wouldn’t have hurt us… Shouldn’t we be doing everything to help us win a title? Can someone help me feel better about this?
 
l Abach l said:
My biggest concern with signing Hayward is the vision of the organization.v I’ve yet to hear an explanation that calms my doubts. Let’s throw the facts out there:

Last season was one of the worst seasons EVER as a jazz fan. The team was atrocious and unbearable to watch. No one was consistently performing throughout the year. How does signing a member of said team to a max deal help us going forward in our goal of contending for the title? I will use the AK47 reference as an example. The Jazz went from pretenders to contenders in the span of 2 years. TWO YEARS! In the 2004-2005 season, AK47 had a year of inflated stats as the versatile, #1 point forward option (Boozer was hurt that year and didn’t play), leading the jazz to a 26-56 record. What did the jazz do as a reward for one of the worst records in the NBA? They gave AK the max. (Any of this sound familiar??) The jazz draft a top prospect in D Will the following year (Just like we drafted Exum this year), and in the 2nd year of AK’s MAX contract, the Jazz were title contenders. It happened THAT fast. No one thought the jazz would be contenders that soon. And EVERYONE thought that AK would be leading the team following his max deal. NO ONE predicted his production to drop that fast, naturally turning into the #4 option on the team. During the following years, the jazz were always hamstringed by AK’s contract and didn’t have flexibility to acquire necessary pieces to get over the hump. Who is to say that in two years the jazz aren’t title contenders? Who is to say that G Time doesn’t organically become the team’s 3rd or 4th option again? The jazz aren’t winning a title with Gordon as a #1 option, so why match? Why is letting him go and waiting a bad idea? If we let AK go that year, it wouldn’t have hurt us… Shouldn’t we be doing everything to help us win a title? Can someone help me feel better about this?
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To me your argument points to why we should match. Boozer as the natural # 1 option was out forcing AK into an unnatural position as the # 1 option. when Boozer came back and DWill was added the Jazz were immediately contenders. AK was relegated to his more natural position of # 3 (or lower) option. I see nothing to suggest that Hayward has the same attitude as AK believing that he should be #1 option. The rest of the team at the time had several overpaid people. Memo and harping contributed to the tight salary situation. With the new coach, new system and Exum chances are high that Hayward will thrive as a # 2 or 3 option and with the growing salary cap this will not be that bad of a contract. It may be a couple of mill high but in the grand scheme of things that does not hurt a team that much. Hayward is in the top of the tier 2 players and the jazz would have to pay that much to get any of them and it is doubtful we could even when offering that salary.
 
ekimebirt said:
To me your argument points to why we should match. Boozer as the natural # 1 option was out forcing AK into an unnatural position as the # 1 option. when Boozer came back and DWill was added the Jazz were immediately contenders. AK was relegated to his more natural position of # 3 (or lower) option. I see nothing to suggest that Hayward has the same attitude as AK believing that he should be #1 option. The rest of the team at the time had several overpaid people. Memo and harping contributed to the tight salary situation. With the new coach, new system and Exum chances are high that Hayward will thrive as a # 2 or 3 option and with the growing salary cap this will not be that bad of a contract. It may be a couple of mill high but in the grand scheme of things that does not hurt a team that much. Hayward is in the top of the tier 2 players and the jazz would have to pay that much to get any of them and it is doubtful we could even when offering that salary.
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I see this #1 vs #2 option differently.
What IS apparent is that Hayward can't be the primary ballhandler and primary scorer. But why should he be? Jazz have PG's for a reason: USE THEM! What's wrong with Hayward getting the ball kicked out to him after Exum drives? Speaking of AK, the one thing he DID do well was be a secondary facilitator. He still got touches (well, until the last 3 years or so). Hayward should be used in a similar fashion. I think Hayward will still be the top scorer next season, but he won't be asked to do everything. And, with an up-tempo game. Gordon is going to get some easy baskets.
 
Core4 said:
I see this #1 vs #2 option differently.
What IS apparent is that Hayward can't be the primary ballhandler and primary scorer. But why should he be? Jazz have PG's for a reason: USE THEM! What's wrong with Hayward getting the ball kicked out to him after Exum drives? Speaking of AK, the one thing he DID do well was be a secondary facilitator. He still got touches (well, until the last 3 years or so). Hayward should be used in a similar fashion. I think Hayward will still be the top scorer next season, but he won't be asked to do everything. And, with an up-tempo game. Gordon is going to get some easy baskets.
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So let us say that Hayward's %s go up to 47% FG, 39% 3 pt 83% FT and he averages 20, 5 & 5 with less turn overs. Is he worth the max then?
 
Stoked said:
So let us say that Hayward's %s go up to 47% FG, 39% 3 pt 83% FT and he averages 20, 5 & 5 with less turn overs. Is he worth the max then?
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Surprisingly, i say yes he is at that point....... well not exactly worth max but if he puts up those numbers then i have no problem with his contract.... also it would have to result in at least 35 wins.

So if hayward shoots 47%, 39%, and 83% and averages 20, 5, &5 with less turnovers and the jazz win 35+ then i will be happy we maxed his contract
 
fishonjazz said:
Surprisingly, i say yes he is at that point....... well not exactly worth max but if he puts up those numbers then i have no problem with his contract.... also it would have to result in at least 35 wins.

So if hayward shoots 47%, 39%, and 83% and averages 20, 5, &5 with less turnovers and the jazz win 35+ then i will be happy we maxed his contract
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Unfotunately, he's given us no reason to think he will or is even capable of doing that.

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franklin said:
I want DL to build a championship so I want him to look at all the options, not just the ones that suit a few short-sighted fans.
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Really? The short-sighted view would be expecting this rebuild to be over now, in which case overpaying Gordon might not be a bad idea. However, if it takes several more years, Hayward just leads us to slightly worse draft pick while hurting our flexibility. It all comes down to how confident you are on Exum, or anyone else for that matter, blowing up. If that happens, overpaying Hayward could work out fine. If it doesn't, Hayward's contract will be a significant factor in hindering our rebuild.
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I admire the uptimism, but I'm betting this rebuild will take a few more years.

franklin said:
Hayward is considered a top 50 player in the league. Such hyperbole...
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Maybe, but I'd be interested to see a list, and then a case made for everyone above him being worthy of this kind of contract. To me, it all depends on the situation of the team signing the bad contract. It makes a hell of a lot more sense for a team looking to get past the first round. For a rebuilding team, it could mean just prolonging the rebuild. Possibly for years. I think we can all agree that the longer you get stuck at the bottom, the harder it is to get out. I will say that if Exum blows up into a borderline all-star sooner rather than later, overpaying Gordo won't look so bad. But if paying Gordo just gets us to the 10th pick instead of the 5th for the next few years, all the time limiting our flexibility, I'd call that a major ****up.
 
seattlejazzfan said:
Unfotunately, he's given us no reason to think he will or is even capable of doing that.

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He has to given us reason to think it is possible. He has shot those %s before and averaged 16, 5 & 5 last year. If he intiates the offense less (I think he will with the addition of Exum) and his %s go back up, (I think they will with a better shot selection as a result of not initiaing the O, then it is possible.
 
Stoked said:
He has to given us reason to think it is possible. He has shot those %s before and averaged 16, 5 & 5 last year. If he intiates the offense less (I think he will with the addition of Exum) and his %s go back up, (I think they will with a better shot selection as a result of not initiaing the O, then it is possible.
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But he never did either at the same time or even came close. When he shot more, his shooting suffered. His best chance to shoot those %s is to shoot a lot less - not score 20ppg.

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