Perhaps this is the defining moment for Hayward

[Ellipse]

Fair enough, but do any of us really consider Hayward the leader of this team? Have we ever?

Hoping that the leader becomes Exum.

The whole leadership thing has become so overblown that it is a distraction. Being a "leader" is not a prerequisite to being a great Jazz player. I cringe every time I hear some idiot (I'm speaking of you, Locke) ask Hayward or Favors if they are ready to step in as leaders of this team. To hell with being "leaders", how about becoming superior offensive and defensive players?

 

[Ellipse]

If you have to ask a player if he is a leader, then clearly he is not.

 

[The Jazz Wonderbra]

I'm about as racist as you are sexist with that screenname. Obviously a lot have things have come to play that *MIGHT* impact Hayward, but if he can't light a fire under his own balls, who's going to do it for him?

It wasn't a personal attack, I just love how being racist towards caucasians is publicly acceptable whereas a hint of racism towards all other races is not tolerated in the slightest. Example... right after the D. Sterling affair a number of proponents for the 'All Black' NBA came out and made some pretty outrageous statements that would be considered punishable by public beheading if you simply changed the skin color on the sentences. Oh well. I don't get it, but perhaps I am too stupid to see the difference.

And I don't see how a woman's article of clothing is sexist. It supports. As do I. Go Jazz.

 

[zbone]

The whole leadership thing has become so overblown that it is a distraction. Being a "leader" is not a prerequisite to being a great Jazz player.

Agree. Who is the "leader" on the Spurs team? Thunder? Grizzlies?
People for some reason confuse best scorer with leader.

 

[gregbroncs]

I don't think so. They know Hayward even better than we do and we seem to all be getting roughly the same vibe from him. I think the FO tried to push him as the leader of the team but it didn't happen.

Maybe. But the end result was a team that really did appear lost and confused a lot. Without a solid leader on the floor or a leader as a coach. I stand by the statement this team needs an on the floor leader and that Hayward is not, nor will be it. I also think he is mentally weak and soft on the floor. None of that means he can't be a really good player. It just means I don't think he'll be a great player. Great players need to be tough mentally and physically.
.
I may not be expressing my point too well. I'm really not a Gordon hater. I like watching him play and wanted him back on the team (not at his price tag though). I just think that another player, hopefully Exum, Burks or Burke, need to be the leader of this team. And that any team with Hayward as the best or 2nd best player is not going very far in the post season.

 

[gregbroncs]

The whole leadership thing has become so overblown that it is a distraction. Being a "leader" is not a prerequisite to being a great Jazz player. I cringe every time I hear some idiot (I'm speaking of you, Locke) ask Hayward or Favors if they are ready to step in as leaders of this team. To hell with being "leaders", how about becoming superior offensive and defensive players?

I agree with most of this. Players can not be forced or force themselves into leadership. I think it comes naturally to some people and not to others. It is something people can get a little better at with work.
.
I do think a team needs a leader though. And I didn't see one last year.

 

[Chris-L]

It wasn't a personal attack, I just love how being racist towards caucasians is publicly acceptable whereas a hint of racism towards all other races is not tolerated in the slightest. Example... right after the D. Sterling affair a number of proponents for the 'All Black' NBA came out and made some pretty outrageous statements that would be considered punishable by public beheading if you simply changed the skin color on the sentences. Oh well. I don't get it, but perhaps I am too stupid to see the difference.

And I don't see how a woman's article of clothing is sexist. It supports. As do I. Go Jazz.

you're fired.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

If you have to ask a player if he is a leader, then clearly he is not.

Are you a leader? Clearly no, because I just asked you if you were and that means you do not pass your litmus test. Is Obama a leader? Clearly no, because he has also been asked. Are there any leaders in this world? I guess so, because there are all sorts of wimps and babies who have never been asked that magic question, but the leaders are obviously not the ones who have attempted to step into leadership positions, because they have almost undoubtedly been asked your magical leadership erasing question at some point in their careers.

 

[Deleted member 848]

The whole leadership thing has become so overblown that it is a distraction. Being a "leader" is not a prerequisite to being a great Jazz player. I cringe every time I hear some idiot (I'm speaking of you, Locke) ask Hayward or Favors if they are ready to step in as leaders of this team. To hell with being "leaders", how about becoming superior offensive and defensive players?

Same with the "what's our identity". Really? Who gives a ****. Get back in transition, and don't get lost in screens. ****s sake.

 

[silesian]

If you have to ask a player if he is a leader, then clearly he is not.

Oh pooh. I have had many employees over the years who I have asked to step up and lead. Some crap out, some step up and do great work.

Whether you have to be asked or not has to do with proactivity, not inherent leadership skills or desire to lead. Some people just do not see it as their role and need a nudge and assurance that you've got their back.

 

[Stoked]

Same with the "what's our identity". Really? Who gives a ****. Get back in transition, and don't get lost in screens. ****s sake.

Honestly I do. I want opposing PGs thinking "damn I'm gonna get clobbered" as they drive into the lane. I want opposing wings thinking "This SOB needs to back off" or "man I hope I make this FT. This crowd is gonna kill me from now on if I don't"

I want it so ingrained with the name Utah that it is int he back of every opposing players minds. It absolutely makes a difference and it starts with the guys on the floor.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

This I disagree with. He had the right emotional response to that. The problem I had is didn't he miss the FT afterwards? That is where he showed lack of toughness.

Sometimes people just miss free throws. There are any number of stars who miss free throws in stressful or other situations. I think this criticism is unfair, though I don't have any particular problem with what else you've written above.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Barea punked him also.

Do you think pouting it's a sign of toughness?

Have I said anything that would lead you to conclude I thought this?

Otherwise, I think the answer is obvious.

 

[fishonjazz]

Have I said anything that would lead you to conclude I thought this?

Otherwise, I think the answer is obvious.

Ya well purple kept bringing up his pouting while you continued to ignore that part of peoples posts

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

Ya well purple kept bringing up his pouting while you continued to ignore that part of peoples posts

My initial post is found on the second page on this thread, and my quick scan of the posts to that point don't reveal much discussions about pouting, which seem to have occurred only after I asked how you defined toughness.

I've no problem with a definition of toughness that excludes a tendency to pout.

 

[fishonjazz]

My initial post is found on the second page on this thread, and my quick scan of the posts to that point don't reveal much discussions about pouting, which seem to have occurred only after I asked how you defined toughness.

I've no problem with a definition of toughness that excludes a tendency to pout.

Others spoke of head-hanging and getting down on himself (forms off pouting imo)

Glad we are on the same page now though..... We all agree that Haywards pouting is a sign of lacking toughness

 

[Ellipse]

Are you a leader? Clearly no, because I just asked you if you were and that means you do not pass your litmus test. Is Obama a leader? Clearly no, because he has also been asked. Are there any leaders in this world? I guess so, because there are all sorts of wimps and babies who have never been asked that magic question, but the leaders are obviously not the ones who have attempted to step into leadership positions, because they have almost undoubtedly been asked your magical leadership erasing question at some point in their careers.

You must have fallen into a field of straw.

 

[My2Cents]

We all agree that Haywards pouting is a sign of lacking toughness

I don't even agree that he pouts. People here like to pretend they know what the players are thinking. They look at a player's mannerisms on the court and try to interpret them or "read between the lines". Hayward drops his head sometimes. Doesn't mean he's pouting. Any player with pride gets down on themselves from time to time when they don't perform to their own expectations. It's pretty common actually, and players exhibit disappointment or frustration in different ways. It's how they respond to those moments that defines them. Hayward isn't Harpring, but I don't think he lacks toughness. FWIW I don't think Stockton would have responded any differently to Delonte West and he was one of the toughest guys who ever played. And spell check shouldn't underline Harpring on a Jazz site.

 

[fishonjazz]

I don't even agree that he pouts. People here like to pretend they know what the players are thinking. They look at a player's mannerisms on the court and try to interpret them or "read between the lines". Hayward drops his head sometimes. Doesn't mean he's pouting. Any player with pride gets down on themselves from time to time when they don't perform to their own expectations. It's pretty common actually, and players exhibit disappointment or frustration in different ways. It's how they respond to those moments that defines them. Hayward isn't Harpring, but I don't think he lacks toughness. FWIW I don't think Stockton would have responded any differently to Delonte West and he was one of the toughest guys who ever played. And spell check shouldn't underline Harpring on a Jazz site.

I agree

 

[zbone]

FWIW I don't think Stockton would have responded any differently to Delonte West and he was one of the toughest guys who ever played. And spell check shouldn't underline Harpring on a Jazz site.

On the next play Stockton would crack Delante's ribs if only Malone wouldn't get his elbows first on him. That's where difference is.