Re-sign Kanter or sign Draymond Green?

[freakazoid]

Don't they need to reup Harrison Barnes too?

Not until the next year.

 

[freakazoid]

Seriously though, why the hell did we give away Millsap if we want Green?.

Millsap was unrestricted, and Utah was a regressing team. The mistake Utah made was fooling themselves that unrestricted FAs would return to a crappy team at a time when they finally have some say in where they play. That's the reason we lost valuable assets for nothing and hurt our ability to rebuild quickly. Utah did not give Millsap away. Millsap chose a better opportunity and most players in his position would have done the same.

 

[orangello]

Green is the flavor of the month and highly overrated. Put him on a team without the firepower that Gstate and he won't look good at all.

Can someone please tell me how you don't "like" a post?

 

[framer]

Millsap was unrestricted, and Utah was a regressing team. The mistake Utah made was fooling themselves that unrestricted FAs would return to a crappy team at a time when they finally have some say in where they play. That's the reason we lost valuable assets for nothing and hurt our ability to rebuild quickly. Utah did not give Millsap away. Millsap chose a better opportunity and most players in his position would have done the same.

Had we offered 10 or 11 million, I suspect Millsap would have returned. at 12 he definitely would have been back for 4 years. Of course had Millsap returned, we would be looking at having Doug McDermott instead of Exum and Hood and we probably would have already divested ourselves of one of Kanter or Gobert. The Golden State Deal wouldn't have happened, so our core going forward would have been Favors, Millsap, Hayward, Burks, and Burke with midlevel guys plus McDemott or Zack Levine and a landlocked Gobert (possibly) off the bench. That is your team. In a good year, if everything broke correctly, and we got lucky, we might make the second round.

That said, if we could swap Kanter before the deadline for value (depth at the 2, or a combo guard), THEN pick up Millsap after the season, we would be in business.

 

[freakazoid]

In order to sign him I believe we would have to renounce the rights to Kanter to clear his cap hold. We could then sign green to a contract, then G-State matches, Aaaaand, we are screwed. THAT would be a short-sighted, bad GM move if ever there was one.

That's a fair point. So the question really is, do we want to re-sign Kanter? If not (and I lean that way because his limited athleticism and iq severely hurts him on defense), then it's really not an issue and we should be looking to trade him before the deadline.

Yes, we want to sign Kanter. Our chances of signing Green are slim to none, IMO, and even if we did, it probably gets matched anyway. Regardless of the Ws financial situation, Green will have opportunities to sign elsewhere with a team in a better situation to compete right away, and he'll still get paid. Also, I agree with E269 that GS will try to maneuver in other ways to cut payroll, before they let Green get away. Realistically, we'd have to take a big gamble with a big contract to pry him away, and I don't think he'll have any problem finding interest from a team in a better current situation. Hell, even if we were willing to max him out, lots of players would take less money to remain in what is a fantastic situation, when you consider his role on a team that could compete for a title. He likely stays with the Dubs, but if he leaves, it'll be for a payday with someone further along than Utah.
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If we really wanted to go after him, I believe we'd have a better shot at trading for him. If they really were against paying the tax, we might be able to pry him away by taking Lee's contract. We'd really have to want him, though. Something like Lee + Green for Treyd + Booker + Novak would work. It also would work if you replaced Novak with Evans, Murry and Clark, so that Trey would be the only guaranteed money for next year they'd have coming back. I think these trade scenarios are highly unlikely, but still a better chance than trying to steal a RFA from a team with a shot at a ring.
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As for Kanter, he has to be re-signed, IMO, and it has everything to do with the salary cap increase over the next two years. It's supposed to jump 5 mill next year and then 20 mill in 2016. Utah will have money to spend, but so will pretty much everybody else. I might buy into trying to maintain cap space to go after FAs if it looked like few teams would also have space, but that's not the case. There will be enough teams with significant cap room next year that Utah would almost certainly just be stuck with leftovers. The year after that is going to be worthless for us FA wise, because everybody will have money. If we had short-sighted management, I would be nervous as hell about 2016. That's the kind of situation that leads a team to give big money to Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva.
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At the end of the day, the huge cap increase in 2016 is going to put us in a situation where we have money, but few good options of where to spend it. Regardless of what you think of Kanter and his defensive liabilities, it's highly unlikely that Utah will find a better option in spending that money.

 

[freakazoid]

Had we offered 10 or 11 million, I suspect Millsap would have returned. at 12 he definitely would have been back for 4 years. .

I'm not buying this, but you're entitled to your opinion. Millsap didn't want Utah to match the Blazer contract, and was resentful of having to play for a team that he felt had low-balled his value. Players in that situation usually bide their time and then bolt at the first opportunity, especially when that team is not in a winning situation. Between the bad blood and losing, I think he was more than happy to take less money for a better situation.

 

[b_line]

I disagree here. Millsap said after he signed with Atlanta that he was disappointed the Jazz had not offered him a contract and that there was a good chance he would have stayed.

I'm not buying this, but you're entitled to your opinion. Millsap didn't want Utah to match the Blazer contract, and was resentful of having to play for a team that he felt had low-balled his value. Players in that situation usually bide their time and then bolt at the first opportunity, especially when that team is not in a winning situation. Between the bad blood and losing, I think he was more than happy to take less money for a better situation.

 

[freakazoid]

I disagree here. Millsap said after he signed with Atlanta that he was disappointed the Jazz had not offered him a contract and that there was a good chance he would have stayed.

Yeah, I know he did, but players say a lot of things. I'd like to know the context of when that was said. Half the time with quotes like that, players are just trying to answer a reporter's question and they are just speaking off the top of their head. I believe he may have been disappointed that Utah didn't make an offer, but I don't believe he was coming back. Either way, you have to take everything players/coaches/GMs say to the media with a grain of salt.

 

[b_line]

Yeah, I know he did, but players say a lot of things. I'd like to know the context of when that was said. Half the time with quotes like that, players are just trying to answer a reporter's question and they are just speaking off the top of their head. I believe he may have been disappointed that Utah didn't make an offer, but I don't believe he was coming back. Either way, you have to take everything players/coaches/GMs say to the media with a grain of salt.

I still think he liked it here a lot. But maybe he was just sick of the way things were going. It is definitely a better situation for him in the east. There is probably no way he is an all star in the west, just because of all the talented forwards out here. He should have made more than a two year, 19 mil deal though.

 

[framer]

I still think he liked it here a lot. But maybe he was just sick of the way things were going. It is definitely a better situation for him in the east. There is probably no way he is an all star in the west, just because of all the talented forwards out here. He should have made more than a two year, 19 mil deal though.

This right here. When he went to the Hawks, they weren't exactly on the radar as being a great destination. Fan support there has traditionally sucked. It wasn't a better situation personally for Millsap. Had Utah offered better or even equal money he stays and becomes the star of the team by default. The Hawks lowballed him, so if he was mad about the negotiations with Utah, it isn't like Atlanta was showing him the money. Part of him staying probably would have been an "understanding" that something had to happen with Kanter. I'll bet he bails on Atlanta. Would like to see him here.

 

[8]

How can you even answer this poll without salary numbers? It seems like op wants to know who people think is better, so he should just ask that maybe? Idk, is that right?

 

[freakazoid]

This right here. When he went to the Hawks, they weren't exactly on the radar as being a great destination. Fan support there has traditionally sucked. It wasn't a better situation personally for Millsap. Had Utah offered better or even equal money he stays and becomes the star of the team by default. The Hawks lowballed him, so if he was mad about the negotiations with Utah, it isn't like Atlanta was showing him the money. Part of him staying probably would have been an "understanding" that something had to happen with Kanter. I'll bet he bails on Atlanta. Would like to see him here.

The big difference being that Atlanta couldn't force him to play there, like we did. As far as it not being a better situation, that's the homer perspective, IMO. He became an all-star and is now starting on the #2 seed in the east. It's true that Atlanta is better off now than when Sap signed, but Utah was a regressing team that just missed the playoffs. It was a better situation, and the way things have turned out only prove that it wasn't just better, but considerably so.

 

[Hotdog]

Yes, we want to sign Kanter. Our chances of signing Green are slim to none, IMO, and even if we did, it probably gets matched anyway. Regardless of the Ws financial situation, Green will have opportunities to sign elsewhere with a team in a better situation to compete right away, and he'll still get paid. Also, I agree with E269 that GS will try to maneuver in other ways to cut payroll, before they let Green get away. Realistically, we'd have to take a big gamble with a big contract to pry him away, and I don't think he'll have any problem finding interest from a team in a better current situation. Hell, even if we were willing to max him out, lots of players would take less money to remain in what is a fantastic situation, when you consider his role on a team that could compete for a title. He likely stays with the Dubs, but if he leaves, it'll be for a payday with someone further along than Utah.
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If we really wanted to go after him, I believe we'd have a better shot at trading for him. If they really were against paying the tax, we might be able to pry him away by taking Lee's contract. We'd really have to want him, though. Something like Lee + Green for Treyd + Booker + Novak would work. It also would work if you replaced Novak with Evans, Murry and Clark, so that Trey would be the only guaranteed money for next year they'd have coming back. I think these trade scenarios are highly unlikely, but still a better chance than trying to steal a RFA from a team with a shot at a ring.
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As for Kanter, he has to be re-signed, IMO, and it has everything to do with the salary cap increase over the next two years. It's supposed to jump 5 mill next year and then 20 mill in 2016. Utah will have money to spend, but so will pretty much everybody else. I might buy into trying to maintain cap space to go after FAs if it looked like few teams would also have space, but that's not the case. There will be enough teams with significant cap room next year that Utah would almost certainly just be stuck with leftovers. The year after that is going to be worthless for us FA wise, because everybody will have money. If we had short-sighted management, I would be nervous as hell about 2016. That's the kind of situation that leads a team to give big money to Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva.
-
At the end of the day, the huge cap increase in 2016 is going to put us in a situation where we have money, but few good options of where to spend it. Regardless of what you think of Kanter and his defensive liabilities, it's highly unlikely that Utah will find a better option in spending that money.

If the salary increase does happen that way, it means anybody signed in this offseason will be at bargain. It's a good time to pick up free agents. They should max out.

I'm not sure how the cap holds work, but go ahead and match whatever on Kanter, and also try to use the remaining cap space as creatively as possible.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Millsap was unrestricted, and Utah was a regressing team. The mistake Utah made was fooling themselves that unrestricted FAs would return to a crappy team at a time when they finally have some say in where they play. That's the reason we lost valuable assets for nothing and hurt our ability to rebuild quickly. Utah did not give Millsap away. Millsap chose a better opportunity and most players in his position would have done the same.

Actually, based on the timeline, I think Millsap planned on returning. DL said they were still speaking with Millsap and his agent. Until Lindsey announced the GS deal, none of Millsap, Carroll and Foye had signed deals with other teams. Pretty sure KOC/DL had decided against bringing back Al and Mo the day the season ended. But the other three were in play. The media reported the FO as being very divided on whether to bring Millsap back or not. Had Paul decided to leave on his own, I think the stories would have read differently. Millsap had to accept a much lower deal than he expected because the market had dried up.

 

[Stifle Tower]

If the salary increase does happen that way, it means anybody signed in this offseason will be at bargain. It's a good time to pick up free agents. They should max out.

I'm not sure how the cap holds work, but go ahead and match whatever on Kanter, and also try to use the remaining cap space as creatively as possible.

GVC is the expert.
In terms of how cap holds work, you have to have slots for 12 players. Amounts for a team's draft picks depend on the position. After that, if you have fewer than 12 players signed to contracts, the remaining slots are calculated at the minimum (which is slightly over $500K). There are also formulas for a team's FA's. I'm not 100% sure what Kanter's hold will be. I believe his qualifying offer is $7.4M, but I think the hold amount is higher. In any case, the Jazz will be right at or over the cap. There really isn't money to pick up a top-tier FA. We'll have our exceptions, plus a little wiggle room with Booker's non-guaranteed deal. I expect Lindsey to perhaps look at players another team may not want to or can't afford to keep. We can then use some expirings now or match an offer sheet if that player is a RFA this summer or next.

 

[freakazoid]

If the salary increase does happen that way, it means anybody signed in this offseason will be at bargain. It's a good time to pick up free agents. They should max out.

I'm not sure how the cap holds work, but go ahead and match whatever on Kanter, and also try to use the remaining cap space as creatively as possible.

Here's an explanation of cap holds. If Utah wanted to sign a significant FA next summer, they would have to renounce their rights to Kanter to do so.

It closes a loophole. Teams otherwise would be able to sign other teams' free agents using their cap room, and then turn their attention to their own free agents using the Bird exception. This rule restricts their ability to do that. It uses the player's current status (type of free agent, whether coming off a rookie contract, and previous salary) as a rough guideline to predict the amount the player is likely to receive in his next contract, and sets that amount aside in the form of a cap hold. But while it functions as a rough guideline, it's obviously not perfect -- for example, in 2005 Michael Redd's free agent amount was just $6 million, even though the Bucks intended to re-sign him for the maximum salary. By waiting to sign Redd last, the Bucks were able to take advantage of the difference by signing Bobby Simmons. Had they signed Redd first, they would not have had enough cap room to sign Simmons.

https://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q39

 

[freakazoid]

Never liked that contract. Extensions have not been something that Lindsey has been good at. Seems to be a pretty decent drafter, but I'm not a big fan of his other moves.

Agreed. It feels like a contract that the Jazz might have to find a buyer for and it might cost a first round pick to get rid of it.

In 2 years this contract will look just fine. Once the cap jumps up to around 90 million, players will be looking for a big payday, and a lot of them will get it. When that happens, I believe Utah's contracts will be looking pretty good, even Burks'.

 

[QuinSnydersHair]

Yes, we want to sign Kanter.

This is a terrifying proposition to me. We'll basically be saying our next 4-5 years and how well we do or don't do will be determined by the core we have right now (Exum, Burks, Hayward, Kanter, Favors, Hood, Gobert, and maybe Burke) plus whoever we get in this coming draft. Obviously there are the other drafts too but assuming we improve slightly as a team, those 1st rounders shouldn't be top 8 picks. Is that core plus one guy (who may or may not end up being god) championship material? Burke? LOL. Kanter? Very doubtful. Maybe he becomes a Memo 2.0 of sorts with worse defense (gulp)...Favors? Possibly I guess. But you see my point. If we end up keeping Kanter, let's say at five years, 50M, I feel as if we may have painted ourselves into a financial corner. Hayward is already paid a ton. Burks overpaid imo. We don't need to overpay for another decent player who in his case brings no defense.

Bi-polar self-retort. Would Hayward + Burks + Favors (good contract) + Kanter + Gobert (if we can extend?) really be costing us that much? Maybe 53M next year? I guess that doesn't kill us but then comes Burke (buh bye) and Exum at some point. Our upcoming 1st rounder. Hmmmm...maybe we'll be okay actually if the LT starts jumping up to 90-100M.

 

[fishonjazz]

This is a terrifying proposition to me. We'll basically be saying our next 4-5 years and how well we do or don't do will be determined by the core we have right now (Exum, Burks, Hayward, Kanter, Favors, Hood, Gobert, and maybe Burke) plus whoever we get in this coming draft. Obviously there are the other drafts too but assuming we improve slightly as a team, those 1st rounders shouldn't be top 8 picks. Is that core plus one guy (who may or may not end up being god) championship material? Burke? LOL. Kanter? Very doubtful. Maybe he becomes a Memo 2.0 of sorts with worse defense (gulp)...Favors? Possibly I guess. But you see my point. If we end up keeping Kanter, let's say at five years, 50M, I feel as if we may have painted ourselves into a financial corner. Hayward is already paid a ton. Burks overpaid imo. We don't need to overpay for another decent player who in his case brings no defense.

Bi-polar self-retort. Would Hayward + Burks + Favors (good contract) + Kanter + Gobert (if we can extend?) really be costing us that much? Maybe 53M next year? I guess that doesn't kill us but then comes Burke (buh bye) and Exum at some point. Our upcoming 1st rounder. Hmmmm...maybe we'll be okay actually if the LT starts jumping up to 90-100M.

Remember that once a player is signed, they don't have to remain with the team.

Signing kanter would be about keeping a very young, talented, ASSET. The jazz could trade kanter, favors, Burks, trey, Hayward, gobert, in some combination for a proven all star. Possibly. (Think Houston, okc, harden)

 

[QuinSnydersHair]

I understand that but if we don't want Kanter and his awful defense at say 10M per, do we really think some other team will?

He's restricted, right?