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Burke is a way better passer.
It's okay, we need 3 PGs, and Cotton > Hanlan from what I can tell.
A Good Word on Cotton
- Thread starter Red
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Burke is a way better passer.
It's okay, we need 3 PGs, and Cotton > Hanlan from what I can tell.
fishonjazz
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Probably right. I just haven't seen him showcase that particular ability much since he is also a chucker
RandyForRubio
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I know he gets hated on a lot, for very good reason, but Burke actually runs the offense pretty well. I wish he would push the pace a lot more, but he does a ton of little things that get overlooked. I truly think he plays a lot better this year. I don't think he'll ever be a good starter, but he should be a very capable backup.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
I'm not sure it's really relevant to debate "pass-first" vs. "shooting" PG anymore. We're not going to see Stockton-to-Malone or even Williams-to-Boozer. This isn't your father's Utah Jazz. The plays can and will run as much through the wings as they will through the PG. Quin has talked about the playmaking abilities of Burks, Hood and Hayward. To me it seems the most important qualities Quin's system needs is 1) can the player guard his position on the other end; 2) can he hit 3's? And, TBH, I'm not sure we have that in ANY of the PG's currently on the roster. Exum is close...if he can develop a shot.
And I agree with Howard. If Burke can reign in his inner-Iverson, he could be a very competent backup.
And I agree with Howard. If Burke can reign in his inner-Iverson, he could be a very competent backup.
Getting Traded
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Dalamon said:
Oh, so Burke actually passes the ball. It's been so long since I've seen him do it, I forgot he actually could.
Red
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Hmm. Not sure how I missed this the first time around. A stat I'm not too familiar with, called PIE:
"So I threw in a new stat that I haven't mentioned before - the PIE stat (or Player Impact Estimate). This is a stat produced by the NBA. Here is what we are told about it:
"It is a simple metric that gives an excellent indication of performance at both the team and player level. It’s a major improvement to our EFF Rating. Notably 2 things changed: (1) We included Personal Fouls, (2) We added a denominator. We feel the key here is the denominator because it acts as an 'automatic equalizer'. Using the denominator, we find there is no need to consider the 'PACE' of the statistics that are being analyzed. In its simplest terms, PIE shows what % of game events did that player or team achieve. The stats being analyzed are your traditional basketball statistics (PTS, REB, AST, TOV, etc..) A team that achieves more than 50% is likely to be a winning team. A player that achieves more than 10% is likely to be better than the average player. A high PIE % is highly correlated to winning. In fact, a team’s PIE rating and a team’s winning percentage correlate at an R square of .908 which indicates a 'strong' correlation. We’ve introduced this statistic because we feel it incorporates a bit of defense into the equation. When a team misses a shot, all 5 players on the other team’s PIE rating goes up."
Here's how to calculate PIE:
(PTS + FGM + FTM - FGA - FTA + DREB + (.5 * OREB) + AST + STL + (.5 * BLK) - PF - TO) / (GmPTS + GmFGM + GmFTM - GmFGA - GmFTA + GmDREB + (.5 * GmOREB) + GmAST + GmSTL + (.5 * GmBLK) - GmPF - GmTO)
Note that a rating of 10% is a player that is "likely better than the average player". Trey had a 6.75% rating in summer league play in his second year versus Cotton's first year rating of 10.33%. Cotton's second year rating jumped to 14.25% (my understanding is that "elite" players fall in the 15-20% range).
What were Cotton's and Trey's PIE rating for the 2014-15 NBA season? Trey came in with a rating of 8.5% and Cotton with a rating of 10.5%.
Getting back to the point. Cotton's first summer league numbers were similar to, if not better than Trey's second summer league stats; and Cotton's second summer league is head and shoulders better than Trey's. When you throw in the NBA season data, it's clear Cotton's the better PG right now."
Link:
https://www.slcdunk.com/2015/9/1/9061213/why-i-will-be-burned-at-the-stake-prior-to-my-41st-birthday
"So I threw in a new stat that I haven't mentioned before - the PIE stat (or Player Impact Estimate). This is a stat produced by the NBA. Here is what we are told about it:
"It is a simple metric that gives an excellent indication of performance at both the team and player level. It’s a major improvement to our EFF Rating. Notably 2 things changed: (1) We included Personal Fouls, (2) We added a denominator. We feel the key here is the denominator because it acts as an 'automatic equalizer'. Using the denominator, we find there is no need to consider the 'PACE' of the statistics that are being analyzed. In its simplest terms, PIE shows what % of game events did that player or team achieve. The stats being analyzed are your traditional basketball statistics (PTS, REB, AST, TOV, etc..) A team that achieves more than 50% is likely to be a winning team. A player that achieves more than 10% is likely to be better than the average player. A high PIE % is highly correlated to winning. In fact, a team’s PIE rating and a team’s winning percentage correlate at an R square of .908 which indicates a 'strong' correlation. We’ve introduced this statistic because we feel it incorporates a bit of defense into the equation. When a team misses a shot, all 5 players on the other team’s PIE rating goes up."
Here's how to calculate PIE:
(PTS + FGM + FTM - FGA - FTA + DREB + (.5 * OREB) + AST + STL + (.5 * BLK) - PF - TO) / (GmPTS + GmFGM + GmFTM - GmFGA - GmFTA + GmDREB + (.5 * GmOREB) + GmAST + GmSTL + (.5 * GmBLK) - GmPF - GmTO)
Note that a rating of 10% is a player that is "likely better than the average player". Trey had a 6.75% rating in summer league play in his second year versus Cotton's first year rating of 10.33%. Cotton's second year rating jumped to 14.25% (my understanding is that "elite" players fall in the 15-20% range).
What were Cotton's and Trey's PIE rating for the 2014-15 NBA season? Trey came in with a rating of 8.5% and Cotton with a rating of 10.5%.
Getting back to the point. Cotton's first summer league numbers were similar to, if not better than Trey's second summer league stats; and Cotton's second summer league is head and shoulders better than Trey's. When you throw in the NBA season data, it's clear Cotton's the better PG right now."
Link:
https://www.slcdunk.com/2015/9/1/9061213/why-i-will-be-burned-at-the-stake-prior-to-my-41st-birthday
Joe Bagadonuts
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Red
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Good point. It should be somewhere on this site:
https://stats.nba.com/
Not that I've found it yet. If I am able to figure it out, I'll post it.
OK, that didn't take long. Just find the player you're interested in, and click on the last name. You can get all that player's stats, but the PIE is right there on the first page for that player. I don't know if you can find a PIE running list, from highest to lowest, but you can at least click on each Jazz player and get the PIE for each.
As an example, Dante's is 3.7% for last season. Which might lead one to conclude the point made by this writer is very weak. But, it's the NBA claiming how relevant it is, so draw your own conclusions. I would not take Dante's 3.7% and predict failure, that 's for sure. In any event, Cotton's sample is still very small.
While I'm here, I'll make what I think is the only real prediction I've actually made about Cotton: he will excel, stand out, in training camp. He will stand out and erase any thought on the part of the FO that they need to sign another guard this season.
Red
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OK, here are some.....
Cotton 10.5%
Gobert 16%
Favors 13.8%
Hayward 13.9%
Hood 8%
Ingles 7.2%
Burks 8.3%
Burke 8.5%
Exum 3.7%
Withey 9.8%
Millsap 4.9%
Booker 10.6%
Red
Well-Known Member
And here are the PIE's for 3 elite players....
Chris Paul 17.3%
Lebron James 17.1%
Stephen Curry 17.8%
So, it would seem elite players will fall between 15-20%. And by that figure, Gobert is in the elite range at 16%, with Hayward and Favors not far behind. I would imagine Dante's PIE is low due to his offensive limitations or "struggles" last season.
Chris Paul 17.3%
Lebron James 17.1%
Stephen Curry 17.8%
So, it would seem elite players will fall between 15-20%. And by that figure, Gobert is in the elite range at 16%, with Hayward and Favors not far behind. I would imagine Dante's PIE is low due to his offensive limitations or "struggles" last season.
Joe Bagadonuts
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Interesting. If this stat is a relevant measure of performance (and it looks like it might be) then the things you have been saying about Cotton are going to prove true. We don't have a number for Neto, but Cotton's number is way better than his other competition.
BTW, if I'm understanding the formula correctly it appears to adjust downward for blocks and offensive rebounds (two of the categories Gobert excels in) but he still turns in a stellar number. And on that same subject, I don't see why an offensive rebound should be weighted less than a defensive rebound. If anything, it should be worth more. Nor do I understand why a block should only be worth half of the other stats.
Joe Bagadonuts
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Kevin Durant 19.4%
Russell Westbrook 18.7%
Enes Kanter 12.4%
James Harden 18.4%
Russell Westbrook 18.7%
Enes Kanter 12.4%
James Harden 18.4%
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
So if Cotton excels this season, is it safe to say the doubters deserve a PIE thrown in their faces?
Joe Bagadonuts
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I assume the Gm stats (such as GMAst) in the denominator are only for stats that occur while the given player is in the game. That means that if you take all ten players on the court for a given stint their PIEs for that stint would cumulatively add to 100%. As you break this stat down it becomes obvious why an average player is at 10%. If one team dominates statistically, though, the five players from that team would probably add to over 50%.
For Durant to achieve a percentage almost double the average is amazing. It might have something to do with his limited playing time last year, though. I'd still love to find a table listing the entire NBA.
Jazz4ever
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Yup, and it will be of the crow variety
Red
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Well, for sure Cotton is in the situation he is most familiar with:
"Prior to the draft, Cotton said, "As I'm noticing throughout this draft process, it's the same scenario where I have to go out there and prove my worth again because there's just a lot of doubt with my ability. This is a road I've been down before that's what's helping me get to this point in my life because it's always kept me very humble and let me know that I have to work hard because nothing will ever be given to me."
So I believe he will certainly excel in training camp. Enough to sign him and keep him on this team. If he contributes as much as I suspect he will, he will finally be over that one last hurdle to realizing his goal.
Red
Well-Known Member
If that transpires, and the Jazz are winning, you won't hear many complaints. And you might be right before all is said and done. As Shammgod said, Cotton is just going to get better and better. Training camp is the next hurdle, and he will stand out there I do expect. I've believed all along that just make that roster and he will be a more important member of the team then many might initially expect. Maybe it's meant to be. Countdown to training camp....
Stifle Tower
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The one thing I believe is Quin is fair. This isn't the old system where veterans were given preferential treatment just because they were veterans. Guys like Ingles and Millsap came in and earned playing time. Exum was promoted over Trey. If Cotton stands out, he'll get playing time.
fishonjazz
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Most jazz fans like cotton and hate trey already.
You are weird dude