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And you want 20 mil per year?

Handlogten's Heros said:
Yes, but letting talent walk for nothing isn't the right answer. If the Grizz wanted to trade Conley this offseason they'd get some assets in the process. He's younger of course, but has had more serious injuries in the past than Hill.

Also, a key difference is our development curve is much higher than theirs... they don't have young talent and have sent out their first round picks while we have been acquiring them.

Even so, I'd rather be the Grizzlies the next few years than some of the alternatives.

We could send out Burks and trade Favs for a less expensive piece and other assets and still likely retain Hill and Ingles and be under the tax. If they wanted to keep Favs or Burks next year we could also trade JJ in a salary dump if it came down to it.

Also, I think the Millers are due for some tax... someday I will run the numbers but i think we have been the lowest payroll in total over the last 4 or 5 years. We have sold picks for cash and have high attendance. Pay a little to keep the team together if we have to.
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Pretty much agree with all that fwiw. Really sucks we couldn't get an extension done. Obviously if we don't get Hill (assuming we get hayward re-signed), we need somebody. Exum is slowly starting to refine, but we need to maintain momentum next season, so if it's not Hill, we need another turnkey free agent or trade to hold down the fort at PG. Admittedly I haven't looked at what's out there.

The one thing I might clarify is I really want to be a contender, and the Grizzlies look like stuck in the middle to me. I realize the alternative may be sucking again, but I don't think their model brings a championship. I guess, perhaps you would try that vs baking another cake, but I wouldn't want to try it for more than about 3 years before retooling. I agree that the Jazz are set up better than the Grizz. So another cake is not in the near future fortunately. Lots of options to exhaust before you resort to that.
 
fishonjazz said:
Does trading favors and burks for less expensive pieces make us better than we currently are?

Does dumping JJ make us better than we currently are?

Seems like in order to keep hill we have to get worse than we currently are.
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No Like button on your posts for me...

I do think that Hill is the more impactful player than those 2 in the current season, so perhaps HH is taking the view of save what you can.

I haven't looked at FA or trades to see whether we really have to pony up for a contract that eats up max space for less than superstar value.
 
vegas said:
No Like button on your posts for me...

I do think that Hill is the more impactful player than those 2 in the current season, so perhaps HH is taking the view of save what you can.

I haven't looked at FA or trades to see whether we really have to pony up for a contract that eats up max space for less than superstar value.
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So it sounds like we could pay hill, lose some pieces (some combination of burks, favors, diaw, jj, hood) and likely get worse than we currently are.
Or let hill walk and hope we can find someone cheaper that is as good as hill (unlikely as hell) or hope exum or a draft pick can play as good as hill is now, next year. (Also unlikely)

Seems like no matter if we sign hill or let him walk we are doomed to get worse. This season is our peak?
 
fishonjazz said:
So it sounds like we could pay hill, lose some pieces (some combination of burks, favors, diaw, jj, hood) and likely get worse than we currently are.
Or let hill walk and hope we can find someone cheaper that is as good as hill (unlikely as hell) or hope exum or a draft pick can play as good as hill is now, next year. (Also unlikely)

Seems like no matter if we sign hill or let him walk we are doomed to get worse. This season is our peak?
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Free agent pgs
Player Team POS Age EXP Type Rights GP MPG PTS REB APG SPG BPG 2017 salary
Derrick Rose NYK PG 28 8 UFA Bird 55 32.5 17.7 4.0 4.5 0.7 0.3 $18,862,876
Stephen Curry GSW PG 28 8 UFA Bird 62 33.5 24.9 4.5 6.3 1.8 0.2 $11,000,000
Jrue Holiday NOP PG 26 8 UFA Bird 49 32.6 16.1 4.1 7.3 1.6 0.6 $10,250,001
Jeff Teague IND PG 28 8 UFA Bird 63 32.5 15.3 4.2 8.0 1.3 0.5 $8,000,000
George Hill UTH PG 30 9 UFA Bird 38 31.9 17.6 3.3 4.2 1.0 0.3 $8,000,000
Shaun Livingston GSW PG 31 12 UFA Bird 58 17.4 5.1 2.0 1.7 0.5 0.3 $5,543,725
Darren Collison SAC PG 29 8 UFA Bird 55 31.0 13.7 2.2 4.3 1.0 0.1 $5,013,559
Patrick Mills SAS PG 28 8 UFA Bird 61 21.6 9.5 1.8 3.3 0.8 0.0 $4,333,333
Trey Burke WAS PG 24 4 RFA Bird 53 12.4 4.9 0.8 1.8 0.2 0.1 $2,758,040
Aaron Brooks IND PG 32 9 UFA Non-Bird 49 13.7 5.0 1.1 2.1 0.5 0.2 $2,700,000
Michael Carter-Williams CHI PG 25 4 RFA Bird 28 21.3 7.9 4.5 2.5 0.8 0.5 $2,520,882
Shelvin Mack UTH PG 26 6 UFA Bird 46 21.4 7.3 2.2 2.8 0.8 0.0 $2,433,333
Tyler Ennis LAL PG 22 3 UFA Bird 35 6.6 2.0 0.7 1.1 0.3 $1,662,320
Raymond Felton LAC PG 32 12 UFA Non-Bird 61 22.1 7.6 2.9 2.6 0.9 0.3 $1,551,659
Beno Udrih DET PG 34 13 UFA Non-Bird 30 14.0 5.7 1.3 3.0 0.2 $1,551,659
Ty Lawson SAC PG 29 8 UFA Non-Bird 57 25.4 9.3 2.6 4.6 1.1 0.1 $1,315,448
Brandon Jennings WAS PG 27 8 UFA Non-Bird 60 24.2 8.3 2.6 4.9 0.9 0.1 $1,200,000
Brian Roberts CHA PG 31 5 UFA Non-Bird 27 8.4 2.7 1.0 1.3 0.1 $1,050,961
Bobby Brown HOU PG 32 1 RFA Non-Bird 19 2.8 1.1 0.3 0.1 $680,534
Ronnie Price PHX PG 33 12 UFA Non-Bird 4 2.3 0.8 0.5 $438,115
Deron Williams CLE PG 32 12 UFA Non-Bird 44 28.5 12.4 2.5 6.6 0.6 0.1 $410,733
Jose Calderon ATL PG 35 12 UFA Non-Bird 27 10.9 3.0 1.5 1.9 0.3 0.0 $392,478
Norris Cole

I think Hill is clearly the best fit we have a chance at. So yes it's probably Hill, or downgrade pg position tbh.

Maybe we can pull off a slight downgrade and do something else though, or maybe we end up with Hill.

I don't have logic for you right now, but I really doubt this season is our one hit wonder with this group. I think we will build on it for at least a couple years, probably quite a few. Don't discount Rudy and Hayward getting substantially better each year. Also heaven forbid we get reasonably healthy for a season.

Now that the deadline passed, the best thing will be to win. The more we win, the more attractive we are.
 
vegas said:
Free agent pgs
Player Team POS Age EXP Type Rights GP MPG PTS REB APG SPG BPG 2017 salary
Derrick RoseNYKPG288UFABird5532.517.74.04.50.70.3$18,862,876
Stephen CurryGSWPG288UFABird6233.524.94.56.31.80.2$11,000,000
Jrue HolidayNOPPG268UFABird4932.616.14.17.31.60.6$10,250,001
Jeff TeagueINDPG288UFABird6332.515.34.28.01.30.5$8,000,000
George HillUTHPG309UFABird3831.917.63.34.21.00.3$8,000,000
Shaun LivingstonGSWPG3112UFABird5817.45.12.01.70.50.3$5,543,725
Darren CollisonSACPG298UFABird5531.013.72.24.31.00.1$5,013,559
Patrick MillsSASPG288UFABird6121.69.51.83.30.80.0$4,333,333
Trey BurkeWASPG244RFABird5312.44.90.81.80.20.1$2,758,040
Aaron BrooksINDPG329UFANon-Bird4913.75.01.12.10.50.2$2,700,000
Michael Carter-WilliamsCHIPG254RFABird2821.37.94.52.50.80.5$2,520,882
Shelvin MackUTHPG266UFABird4621.47.32.22.80.80.0$2,433,333
Tyler EnnisLALPG223UFABird356.62.00.71.10.3$1,662,320
Raymond FeltonLACPG3212UFANon-Bird6122.17.62.92.60.90.3$1,551,659
Beno UdrihDETPG3413UFANon-Bird3014.05.71.33.00.2$1,551,659
Ty LawsonSACPG298UFANon-Bird5725.49.32.64.61.10.1$1,315,448
Brandon JenningsWASPG278UFANon-Bird6024.28.32.64.90.90.1$1,200,000
Brian RobertsCHAPG315UFANon-Bird278.42.71.01.30.1$1,050,961
Bobby BrownHOUPG321RFANon-Bird192.81.10.30.1$680,534
Ronnie PricePHXPG3312UFANon-Bird42.30.80.5$438,115
Deron WilliamsCLEPG3212UFANon-Bird4428.512.42.56.60.60.1$410,733
Jose CalderonATLPG3512UFANon-Bird2710.93.01.51.90.30.0$392,478
Norris Cole

I think Hill is clearly the best fit we have a chance at. So yes it's probably Hill, or downgrade pg position tbh.

Maybe we can pull off a slight downgrade and do something else though, or maybe we end up with Hill.

I don't have logic for you right now, but I really doubt this season is our one hit wonder with this group. I think we will build on it for at least a couple years, probably quite a few. Don't discount Rudy and Hayward getting substantially better each year. Also heaven forbid we get reasonably healthy for a season.

Now that the deadline passed, the best thing will be to win. The more we win, the more attractive we are.
Click to expand...
Great post.
And for what's it's worth I was mostly playing glass half empty devils advocate guy.

I think we will be fine. I trust DL, quin, and rudy.
 
vegas said:
Pretty much agree with all that fwiw. Really sucks we couldn't get an extension done. Obviously if we don't get Hill (assuming we get hayward re-signed), we need somebody. Exum is slowly starting to refine, but we need to maintain momentum next season, so if it's not Hill, we need another turnkey free agent or trade to hold down the fort at PG. Admittedly I haven't looked at what's out there.
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Sign D-will this offseason. D-will has the same agent as Joe Johnson, so maybe a similar 2-year deal that JJ got could be worked out with D-will. He's not a 20-10 all-star anymore obviously, but I think he can still be a reliable 14 ppg/6-7 assist guy every night. If Exum still doesn't improve and remains a scrub, at least we have PG that can man the fort for a couple of years until we figure out a long term solution.
 
I'd also make a run at Ty Lawson again (as a backup plan)...maybe he'll be more receptive to the idea of playing here knowing the Jazz have a REAL team now.
 
vegas said:
Free agent pgs
Player Team POS Age EXP Type Rights GP MPG PTS REB APG SPG BPG 2017 salary
Derrick Rose NYK PG 28 8 UFA Bird 55 32.5 17.7 4.0 4.5 0.7 0.3 $18,862,876
Stephen Curry GSW PG 28 8 UFA Bird 62 33.5 24.9 4.5 6.3 1.8 0.2 $11,000,000
Jrue Holiday NOP PG 26 8 UFA Bird 49 32.6 16.1 4.1 7.3 1.6 0.6 $10,250,001
Jeff Teague IND PG 28 8 UFA Bird 63 32.5 15.3 4.2 8.0 1.3 0.5 $8,000,000
George Hill UTH PG 30 9 UFA Bird 38 31.9 17.6 3.3 4.2 1.0 0.3 $8,000,000
Shaun Livingston GSW PG 31 12 UFA Bird 58 17.4 5.1 2.0 1.7 0.5 0.3 $5,543,725
Darren Collison SAC PG 29 8 UFA Bird 55 31.0 13.7 2.2 4.3 1.0 0.1 $5,013,559
Patrick Mills SAS PG 28 8 UFA Bird 61 21.6 9.5 1.8 3.3 0.8 0.0 $4,333,333
Trey Burke WAS PG 24 4 RFA Bird 53 12.4 4.9 0.8 1.8 0.2 0.1 $2,758,040
Aaron Brooks IND PG 32 9 UFA Non-Bird 49 13.7 5.0 1.1 2.1 0.5 0.2 $2,700,000
Michael Carter-Williams CHI PG 25 4 RFA Bird 28 21.3 7.9 4.5 2.5 0.8 0.5 $2,520,882
Shelvin Mack UTH PG 26 6 UFA Bird 46 21.4 7.3 2.2 2.8 0.8 0.0 $2,433,333
Tyler Ennis LAL PG 22 3 UFA Bird 35 6.6 2.0 0.7 1.1 0.3 $1,662,320
Raymond Felton LAC PG 32 12 UFA Non-Bird 61 22.1 7.6 2.9 2.6 0.9 0.3 $1,551,659
Beno Udrih DET PG 34 13 UFA Non-Bird 30 14.0 5.7 1.3 3.0 0.2 $1,551,659
Ty Lawson SAC PG 29 8 UFA Non-Bird 57 25.4 9.3 2.6 4.6 1.1 0.1 $1,315,448
Brandon Jennings WAS PG 27 8 UFA Non-Bird 60 24.2 8.3 2.6 4.9 0.9 0.1 $1,200,000
Brian Roberts CHA PG 31 5 UFA Non-Bird 27 8.4 2.7 1.0 1.3 0.1 $1,050,961
Bobby Brown HOU PG 32 1 RFA Non-Bird 19 2.8 1.1 0.3 0.1 $680,534
Ronnie Price PHX PG 33 12 UFA Non-Bird 4 2.3 0.8 0.5 $438,115
Deron Williams CLE PG 32 12 UFA Non-Bird 44 28.5 12.4 2.5 6.6 0.6 0.1 $410,733
Jose Calderon ATL PG 35 12 UFA Non-Bird 27 10.9 3.0 1.5 1.9 0.3 0.0 $392,478
Norris Cole

I think Hill is clearly the best fit we have a chance at. So yes it's probably Hill, or downgrade pg position tbh.

Maybe we can pull off a slight downgrade and do something else though, or maybe we end up with Hill.

I don't have logic for you right now, but I really doubt this season is our one hit wonder with this group. I think we will build on it for at least a couple years, probably quite a few. Don't discount Rudy and Hayward getting substantially better each year. Also heaven forbid we get reasonably healthy for a season.

Now that the deadline passed, the best thing will be to win. The more we win, the more attractive we are.
Click to expand...



When I got to Trey Burke on the list I puked in my mouth a little.

Another route would be trading for a guy like Rubio or Bledsoe if Phoenix got a PG and came down on the asking price. It'd likely be Favors and stuff. I like him as a player but injuries and attitude are kind of scary.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I mean miles plumlee got 4/50... people crapped in their pants at the money... Milwaukee was able to move the deal for basically expiring. Hill fits a lot of places so if Dante blows up and we are ready to turn the reigns over I think it is plausible to think we could move Hill and get off his money.

Hill is worth at least two plumlees maybe all of them and a couple zellers.

Give him teh monies!
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Didn't Mozgov get 4/65??
 
Thee jazz fan said:
Didn't Mozgov get 4/65??
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Yes but I doubt the could trade him... though I would have said the same thing about plumlee.

Big men are in less demand than pgs these days... unless there was a major leg injury I think Hill could be moved. Again if Memphis wanted to move Conley this offseason they would receive assets in the deal.
 
Max Hayward, let George Hill go.

George Hill is 31. Even Iron man LeBron said he's declining at age 31. A lot of former all-stars don't last that long.


Look at two big name free agents who recently signed Max contracts after age 31:

1) Aldridge - declining since last year, even more so this year. And his game supposedly shouldn't be affected too much with age

2) Horford - declining and he's pretty much playing a stretch 5 who doesn't shoot that well from 3s, it paisn me to watch him try to get rebounds over 6'6 players.

And George Hill was never close to being a NBA All-Star like these two.
 
Siro said:
We don't have the cap space to sign anyone other than Hill? I don't understand this.
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I believe the jazz have Hill's Bird rights, so they can exceed the cap to re-sign him. If they grab a free agent PG then they are constrained by the cap (not just by the luxury tax threshold).
 
If we could get an injury clause in his contract and prorate the games each season, a 30 mill a year contract would probably end up about 20 mil a year with the games he misses. Then it might be a go.

I know it would never happen but fun to think about. (He's questionable again tonight against the Rockets.)
 
Hill injured again? Is he worth 20 mill per for 2/3 of the games?
 
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