Another religious topic......
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LogGrad98
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World of Warcraft
Kind of like a health code and the "blessings" associated with it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Wisdom#Prohibitions
7StraightIsGreat
Well-Known Member
Seems like most LDS who I've heard discuss this issue seem to be of the consensus that blacks not holding the priesthood had pretty much everything to do with Brigham Young as a man, not as a prophet. I can buy that. I've also had more than one discussion with LDS members in which they concede that due to his stance on blacks and the priesthood, it's probably fair to say that Brigham Young was at least a tinsy bit of a racist.
With all that being said, I find it extremely interesting that god would choose a short-sighted racist as the prophet to lead his restored church.
With all that being said, I find it extremely interesting that god would choose a short-sighted racist as the prophet to lead his restored church.
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
Well-Known Member
My view is, I don't know why God does what he does. I'm LDS, and believe the Church is run by Jesus Christ, and a prophet does and speaks the will of God. I would be interested to hear why some of you think Blacks not receiving the priesthood is Brigham Youngs doing. If he was racist, God would've removed him from his calling as prophet. Anyone who believes the Bible to be Gods word would know blacks weren't the only people to ever not be allowed to hold the priesthood.
Certainly fair. Probably spot on.
As an active church member, I have always thought that the membership tends to have a skewed perception of their most senior leaders. They are held up as perfect, or near perfect individuals, whose every decision gets God's stamp of approval. I don't see it that way. I believe God got things going with Joseph Smith, but has mostly left it in the hands of men to run.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to me that Joe Q. Churchmember is responsible for all his own decisions, choices, and actions, while the higher ups don't do any of that, because they can just do whatever God tells them directly.
Brigham Young was, in all likelihood, a pretty average guy for that time period. Race and race relations were viewed in a completely different way. I believe BY made his own decisions, based on his own politics, and that was that. God knows things are going to be straightened out, eventually, and that those who make the policy decisions are going to be held accountable for those decisions.
For God being the one hand selecting his prophets, there seems to be a pretty solid line of succession followed. If God has to babysit the whole show, what's the point?
Let me collect my thoughts. I'm trying to find a treatise written by a BYU alum that Colton posted a while back in another thread. If I can find it I'll put some of my thoughts together and post them up. Basically, I think the WoW has been turned into something that it was never intended to be. Again, because of men's ambitions and thoughts, not what God set forth.
For believers in God, if His work was to have a perfect society then why didn't He just plop it down right out of the Garden? My thinking is the work of God, and more specifically Christ without getting into the Council of Nicaea stuff, is to massage society along to a point where some predetermined goal is reached.
This in part has a lot to do with the reasons I'm such a polyanna and think the impending Armageddon is a bunch of sensationalized ******** taken from symbolic/allegorical/tall tale written years after John's death roots. But I can't say that to many people without being completely written off from the onset. It seems the Apocalypse is too engrained in our culture, just as slavery is engrained as some evil invention of America, to challenge the status quo.
Either way, for believers and non-believers alike, we are forming a "more perfect union" and that includes all the slavery stuff politically and religious as related to LDS. I don't see any reason for modern society to be bothered by it just because it happened only 50 years ago. White people have been slaves, black people have been slaves to white, brown, yellow, and black, and every people in between have been slaves treated brutally at one point. If God had to stop this then he would have done it under Joseph sold into Egypt or something. God started stopping it when he stopped it and that's the end of discussion as far as I am concerned.
Beantown
Well-Known Member
-there is no quote from Jospeh or anything in the D&C about blacks not being able to recieve the priesthood
- Joseph ordained several black men to the priesthood, when Brigham became president he revoked their priesthood
-Brigham made numerous racist remarks, most notably that white and black relations were punishable by death.
I'm an active member but Brigham did some odd stuff. A prophet doesn't mean you are Jesus. All biblical and BOM prophets made plenty of mistakes. The same hold true now.
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
Well-Known Member
I would be interested to see where it said that Joseph Smith gave the priesthood to blacks. I have never heard this. This is the kind of thing I would know about if it happened, or at least I would think so.
As far as Prophets making mistakes, they are human like the rest of us. But certain mistakes would cause them to lose their calling as prophet. Being racist I would think is one of them.
Joseph Smith was, very publicly, pro-abolition (or at least anti-slavery).
1836: In March, Elijah Abel, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1836: In December, Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Seventy.
1844: Walker Lewis, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1846: William McCary, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1900: Enoch Abel, the son of Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1935: Elijah Abel, grandson of Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Elder.
https://www.blacklds.org/priesthood
From what I've read, the initial revocation and denial of the priesthoods to blacks occurred in 1848, under the direction of Brigham Young.
1836: In March, Elijah Abel, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1836: In December, Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Seventy.
1844: Walker Lewis, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1846: William McCary, a black man, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1900: Enoch Abel, the son of Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Elder.
1935: Elijah Abel, grandson of Elijah Abel, is ordained to the office of Elder.
https://www.blacklds.org/priesthood
From what I've read, the initial revocation and denial of the priesthoods to blacks occurred in 1848, under the direction of Brigham Young.
Brigham Young said:
So is he a blasphemer? Does he go to Outer Darkness? Or does he have the premier institution of learning named after him even today?
Beantown
Well-Known Member
I hate to burst your bubble but most of the church was racist back then. In fact look at guys like Mckonkie just recently.
But again people are products of their time and surroundings. So we need to take that into context.
The church is very very different from back then and even 50 years ago.
I am not trying to create an argument or be rude but I would say that some beliefs don't find the word of wisdom to be prophetic or a wise way to live healthy. Especially as defined by the church today.
As a side note I dont think WoW is a good acronym for word of wisdom. Thats just me, I think the majority of people in the world would assume World of Warcraft when they see WoW, maybe not.
Craig K. Manscill
Well-Known Member
Hello everyone,,
I'm enjoying this church related conversation. But I don't agree with a lot of your theories. Some of you are saying that God wasn't aware of racist policies taking place. Of course He was. Did God not care enough? Of course He cares, racism is a terrible thing. So neither of those work if you truly believe in a all-knowing, benevolent God.
One poster made a reference to the bible also being selectively racist. This is where my own theory comes into play. Since the church's sole purpose is to guide us in these latter days, and prophets are God's mouthpiece, we can only conclude that God wanted those before 1978 to be slightly racist to fit His plan. We can't possibly comprehend God's plan, so maybe there is a way racism is a good thing. I like to think so anyway. Because clearly our church was racist for most of its history, there is no denying that. Perhaps the means achieves the end. Let's embrace our racist past instead of getting defensive about it.
- Craig
I'm enjoying this church related conversation. But I don't agree with a lot of your theories. Some of you are saying that God wasn't aware of racist policies taking place. Of course He was. Did God not care enough? Of course He cares, racism is a terrible thing. So neither of those work if you truly believe in a all-knowing, benevolent God.
One poster made a reference to the bible also being selectively racist. This is where my own theory comes into play. Since the church's sole purpose is to guide us in these latter days, and prophets are God's mouthpiece, we can only conclude that God wanted those before 1978 to be slightly racist to fit His plan. We can't possibly comprehend God's plan, so maybe there is a way racism is a good thing. I like to think so anyway. Because clearly our church was racist for most of its history, there is no denying that. Perhaps the means achieves the end. Let's embrace our racist past instead of getting defensive about it.
- Craig