Another shooting... California Disability Centre

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Country X is having problems with fatal car accidents involving volkswagons.
Country X bans volkswagons from driving on the road.
The next year, Country X has 0 reported volkswagon related car accidents.

A total ban on guns is the nuclear option. But how bad does it have to get before we pull that trigger?

Banning guns would not eliminate guns. It's not even remotely like banning a certain brand of car. Bad analogy.

 

[Scat]

Country X is having problems with fatal car accidents involving volkswagons.
Country X bans volkswagons from driving on the road.
The next year, Country X has 0 reported volkswagon related car accidents.

This only means that there will be an equal number of fatal car crashes involving other brands of cars.

 

[Stoked]

Country X is having problems with fatal car accidents involving volkswagons.
Country X bans volkswagons from driving on the road.
The next year, Country X has 0 reported volkswagon related car accidents.

A total ban on guns is the nuclear option. But how bad does it have to get before we pull that trigger?

It won't happen hat fast short of forced compliance. As in house to house searches and confiscation.

A gun ban, no longer selling them, won't show any dividends for probably 20 years, if that.

So what kind of ban are we talking about?

 

[Harambe]

Banning guns would not eliminate guns. It's not even remotely like banning a certain brand of car. Bad analogy.

It's not a great analogy, but it's not terrible either. The trouble is finding them pre-emptively. A car you can see someone driving around pretty easily. A gun; not so much. But start with all registered guns, then give an amnesty period for people to turn in legal/illegal guns, then tougher gun laws(yes, guns are very different than drugs), it could work.

This only means that there will be an equal number of fatal car crashes involving other brands of cars.

That depends on why we're targetting Volkswagons specifically. If it's because they're poorly built, over complicated german death machines, or maybe cars that are easily hacked into disabling their brake lines, you would net a lower number of fatal car crashes.

 

[Gameface]

Well yeah, in some states you can go to gun shows.

Have you ever been to a gun show? The people who rent booths at gun shows are gun store owners. Anyone selling guns that holds an FFL (federal firearms license) has to run a background check for every sell, even at gun shows.

Now if a non-FFL holder wanted to rent a booth and sell their personal collection of firearms they could do so without running background checks. But if this person bought/sold guns regularly, or bought brand new guns and sold brand new guns, they would be violating the law. What they are doing would be considered a straw-man purchase and is illegal.

However, I suppose a mentally deranged person, or potential domestic terrorist, could hang out at the gun show and solicit their fellow visitors to sell them some of their privately owned guns. That could happen, legally, without a background check. I invite you to go to the next gun show in your area and see if you can get any action on that play.

 

[fishonjazz]

This only means that there will be an equal number of fatal car crashes involving other brands of cars.

Not necessarily.
Maybe the Volkswagen cars had poor safety ratings. Maybe the brakes were faulty ect.

 

[fishonjazz]

Have you ever been to a gun show? The people who rent booths at gun shows are gun store owners. Anyone selling guns that holds an FFL (federal firearms license) has to run a background check for every sell, even at gun shows.

Now if a non-FFL holder wanted to rent a booth and sell their personal collection of firearms they could do so without running background checks. But if this person bought/sold guns regularly, or bought brand new guns and sold brand new guns, they would be violating the law. What they are doing would be considered a straw-man purchase and is illegal.

However, I suppose a mentally deranged person, or potential domestic terrorist, could hang out at the gun show and solicit their fellow visitors to sell them some of their privately owned guns. That could happen, legally, without a background check. I invite you to go to the next gun show in your area and see if you can get any action on that play.

Serious question
Can I put my gun on ksl classifieds and sell it without doing a background check?

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

It's not a great analogy, but it's not terrible either. The trouble is finding them pre-emptively. A car you can see someone driving around pretty easily. A gun; not so much. But start with all registered guns, then give an amnesty period for people to turn in legal/illegal guns, then tougher gun laws(yes, guns are very different than drugs), it could work.



That depends on why we're targetting Volkswagons specifically. If it's because they're poorly built, over complicated german death machines, or maybe cars that are easily hacked into disabling their brake lines, you would net a lower number of fatal car crashes.

No point in debating this because there is a zero percent chance that your proposal will happen.

 

[Stoked]

No point in debating this because there is a zero percent chance that your proposal will happen.

With the current supreme court rulings on the 2nd amendment you are correct. To change this would take an amendment to the constitution or a "Constitutional Convention". Neither option would look good for Gun control groups as the Rs hold the Senate and House and over 30 states have R Governors. If anything it would lead to further gun right measures. At least currently.

Or revolution and starting over I guess.

just a non starter.

But again, are we talking a gun ban (no more selling) or gun confiscation?

 

[Gameface]

Serious question
Can I put my gun on ksl classifieds and sell it without doing a background check?

Does KSL allow gun ads again? I know they used to, and I've sold several guns through KSL, but I believe they stopped allowing them, at least for a while.

But the answer is that yes, you can. Private individuals can sell their own privately owned guns to other private individuals without filling out any paperwork or running any kind of background check.

Now, if you make a gun purchase with the intent of transferring that gun to someone else then that is illegal. It's called a straw-man purchase. It can be extremely difficult to prove, or to even uncover at all, but it is illegal.

 

[Gameface]

It's just a pet peeve that it's called a gun show loophole. When people parrot that phrase I assume they are speaking out of ignorance, because that's a pretty innacurate description of the loophole. The loophole should be called the "private sell/transfer loophole" as ANY sale of a firearm from one non-FFL holder to another non-FFL holder of privately owned firearms that were originally purchased for personal use (not sale/profit), does not require a background check. I'd assume 99% of gun sales that don't require a background check happen OUTSIDE of gun shows.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Does KSL allow gun ads again? I know they used to, and I've sold several guns through KSL, but I believe they stopped allowing them, at least for a while.

But the answer is that yes, you can. Private individuals can sell their own privately owned guns to other private individuals without filling out any paperwork or running any kind of background check.

Now, if you make a gun purchase with the intent of transferring that gun to someone else then that is illegal. It's called a straw-man purchase. It can be extremely difficult to prove, or to even uncover at all, but it is illegal.

This seems like a serious problem. There should not be a route for criminals to buy guns legally.

 

[Stoked]

This seems like a serious problem. There should not be a route for criminals to buy guns legally.

Problem is how to you legislate and enforce every possible avenue for criminals to get said guns?

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Problem is how to you legislate and enforce every possible avenue for criminals to get said guns?

When I sell a car it has registration, and in order for the buyer to become the legal owner he needs to obtain that registration. Why can't guns be basically the same way with a requirement that the registration be transferred prior to the gun? I realize it's inconvenient, but it's far more inconvenient for the recipient of the bullet if the gun gets sold to a criminal. Gun enthusiasts and owners should be among the most committed to keeping these weapons out of the hands of criminals.

 

[Stoked]

When I sell a car it has registration, and in order for the buyer to become the legal owner he needs to obtain that registration. Why can't guns be basically the same way with a requirement that the registration be transferred prior to the gun? I realize it's inconvenient, but it's far more inconvenient for the recipient of the bullet if the gun gets sold to a criminal. Gun enthusiasts and owners should be among the most committed to keeping these weapons out of the hands of criminals.

So basically a national gun registration no matter the circumstances. I can see ways to enforce that.

Has a national gun registry come up before the courts?

 

[Harambe]

No point in debating this because there is a zero percent chance that your proposal will happen.

Propose an answer, shot down because it won't happen. Not that it's a bad idea, not that it's impossible to execute... just that it won't happen.

Helpful

 

[The Midnight]

Farook, born in the United States, met Malik while on a recent trip to her native Saudi Arabia, the LA Times said. He had met her online, the paper reported.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) said Farook left his 6-month-old child with his mother Wednesday morning, claiming he had a doctor’s appointment.

Farook’s brother-in-law, Farhan Khan, said at a press conference with the Orange County chapter of CAIR: “I have no idea why would he do that. Why would he do something like this? I have absolutely no idea.”

Farook made $51,000 a year as an environmental health specialist for the county.

So.. here is a guy who was born in the US, makes decent money as a specialist .. then he suddenly met this girl on his trip, got married, and everything changed?


I'd investigate the woman first if I'm the detective...

 

[The Midnight]

From another source...

Sources have said Farook's apparent radicalisation contributed to his role in the mass shooting. Farook travelled to Saudi Arabia for several weeks in 2013 on the Hajj, the annual pilgrimage to Mecca that Muslims are required to take at least once in their lifetime. This didn't raise red flags but it was during this trip that he met Malik, a native of Pakistan who came to the United States on a "fiancee visa" and later became a lawful permanent resident.

 

[framer]

If we ban guns how can bad guys have guns?

 

[framer]

So the big fail is this: known evil baddies in contact with little known domestic evil baddie who goes to the Middle East for quite some time and comes back with a wife, no red flags are raised. Neighbor sees suspicious things, says noting because he is afraid of being called a racist. After facts come out, President is still saying "Hey guys, this could all be workplace violence. . ."

I guess there is a chance that the dude asked the people he worked with, "Hey I've been listening to Rush Limbaugh and feel the need to shoot up a Planned Parenthood Clinic. Do you know where I could find one?" Coworkers don't know, dude gets his wife and slaughters them for being unhelpful.

Or perhaps it is because people are praying too much. . . Probably that.