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Big Al for Darren Collison and future 1st rounder?

seems like Indy may let Hibbert sign w/ Portland (say S&T w/ Wes & TPE, not sure if they can do both player/TPE) but....
how about Al, Raja, & our conditional '13 pick for Granger (+ filler if needed)???

Mo / Gordon / Granger / Paul / Favors (Marvin, Enes, Burks, Earl, FA Big....)
Collison / Wes / Paul / West / Al (Hill, Hansbrough, etc....)

or swap Marvin i/o Raja & our pick (Raja still gets dumped somewhere else, maybe POR in 3-way)???
 
Bodhi said:
Much worse. Like for instance, someone the other day mentioned we should continue to let Al stunt Favors and Kanters growth by just letting him expire.
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/puke

Please, don't let that happen, KOC.

Although Kanter and Favors are the ones suffering the most with Jefferson still on the team, we need to acknowledge that he's also stunting the growth of Burks and Hayward with how many shots he takes and how little he passes...and the fact that Corbin always wants to run the offense through him. I don't HATE the guy by any means, and I certainly think there's a place for him in the NBA, but in terms of being on a rebuilding team with lots of talented young players who need time and space to grow, he's nothing but a weed.
 
Jefferson=highest PER on team, best simple rating on team. But let's trade him for a below average point guard b/c he's a "ballstopper." Then the Jazz can play real "team ball," whipping crisp passes around the perimeter, leading to contested 19 footers.
 
Deron Williams said:
Jefferson=highest PER on team, best simple rating on team. But let's trade him for a below average point guard b/c he's a "ballstopper." Then the Jazz can play real "team ball," whipping crisp passes around the perimeter, leading to contested 19 footers.
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PER doesn't factor in defensive suckitude.

it also doesn't factor in how you make it impossible for a young, talented core to get better by being on the floor with you.
 
Deron Williams said:
Jefferson=highest PER on team, best simple rating on team. But let's trade him for a below average point guard b/c he's a "ballstopper." Then the Jazz can play real "team ball," whipping crisp passes around the perimeter, leading to contested 19 footers.
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**** you. Big al Dick licker
 
Our starting center for a backup PG? We don't even need a back-up PG.

If you really feel that strongly then just amnesty Jefferson.

Seriously, I might inquire about Rudy Gay, Iguodala and S/T for Eric Gordon, but there's only a fairly short list of players the Jazz should trade Jefferson for.
 
Deron Williams said:
Jefferson=highest PER on team, best simple rating on team. But let's trade him for a below average point guard b/c he's a "ballstopper." Then the Jazz can play real "team ball," whipping crisp passes around the perimeter, leading to contested 19 footers.
Click to expand...

The whole warrant to your argument is that Al makes the team better--something I don't agree with--but that's really beside the point I, and many others, are making. It all comes down to:

1. Do you believe Favors/Kanter can become better than Jefferson? (I say, yes)
2. Do you believe Jefferson is stunting the growth of Favors/Kanter? (again, I say, yes)

Therefore, I want him gone sooner than later. Pretty simple.
 
theNBAnerd said:
PER doesn't factor in defensive suckitude.

it also doesn't factor in how you make it impossible for a young, talented core to get better by being on the floor with you.
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Of course, simple rating does account for defense, and Al still rates as the best player on last year's team by that metric.

And I love how Hibbert's 12-8-2 is offered as evidence that he's better than Al (19-9.6-1.7).
 
InGameStrategy said:
Realistically, Jefferson is not a top 5 center in the league.

Superman
Bynum
Hibbert
Duncan
Aldridge (now will be PF, I guess)
Hibbert (12/8/2; more youth)
Gasol (either of them)
Chandler (for overall defensive impact)
Maybe Gortat

AJ's clutch play? So-so.
https://www.82games.com/1112/11UTA14.HTM#clutch

P&R defense? No-no.

Ability to carry the team late into the playoffs?
Unlikely unless he continues to improve the above.
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First...3 of those names you listed are Power Forwards. Out of the rest, no question Howard and Bynum are better than Big Al. Even if we throw in Hibbert and Chandler ahead of Big Al, he's still top 5. And I'm assuming you were joking about Gortat. If there was ever a center in the league that is worse than Big Al defensively, that's the guy.
 
akirac73 said:
First...3 of those names you listed are Power Forwards. Out of the rest, no question Howard and Bynum are better than Big Al. Even if we throw in Hibbert and Chandler ahead of Big Al, he's still top 5. And I'm assuming you were joking about Gortat. If there was ever a center in the league that is worse than Big Al defensively, that's the guy.
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His list is not great but I still don't put Big AL in the top 5.

Howard
Bynum
Mark Gasol
Garnett (played C when the Celtics made the playoff push)
Hibbert
Chandler
 
Deron Williams said:
Of course, simple rating does account for defense, and Al still rates as the best player on last year's team by that metric.

And I love how Hibbert's 12-8-2 is offered as evidence that he's better than Al (19-9.6-1.7).
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not really. it accounts for the overall the overall 5-man defensive unit's plus-minus while al is on the floor with them, but does not account for the number of times al let's an opposing perimeter player fly by him on the pick-and-roll.

simple rating also says that fesenko is 2.5 times better than jefferson and that jefferson is better than russell westbrook and essentially as valuable as tony parker. since none of those things is true, you might want to put a stat past the "smell test" before choosing it to convince us all that jefferson is the franchise player you say he is.
 
Catchall said:
Our starting center for a backup PG? We don't even need a back-up PG.

If you really feel that strongly then just amnesty Jefferson.

Seriously, I might inquire about Rudy Gay, Iguodala and S/T for Eric Gordon, but there's only a fairly short list of players the Jazz should trade Jefferson for.
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Watson and Tinsley are far worse than Collison...Not to mention we only traded a lottery protected first and Kousta Koufos for Big Al...
 
Wow talk about over valuing big al. I like what big al brings to this team. But we have to face it he could just wlk at the end of the year. Favors and kanter need more playing time. Jefferson or millsap have to go. I like millsaps skill set better so it is all.

Let's take a look mo wlliams is approaching 30 Watson and tinsley are average back ups at best.
Hayward and burks are part of the future so another sg is not really needed.
Marvin is a decent sf and I am excited to see what he can do. Carroll and Murphy eh. A sf would be a decent trade but probably a back up here
The bigs is already evident. With an Evans signing we have plenty.

So with that said we need a good back up at 1 and 3. This solves our back up to wlliams and if collinson shows he will thrive in our system we let mo go. If not he is a good back up.
 
theNBAnerd said:
not really. it accounts for the overall the overall 5-man defensive unit's plus-minus while al is on the floor with them, but does not account for the number of times al let's an opposing perimeter player fly by him on the pick-and-roll.

simple rating also says that fesenko is 2.5 times better than jefferson and that jefferson is better than russell westbrook and essentially as valuable as tony parker. since none of those things is true, you might want to put a stat past the "smell test" before choosing it to convince us all that jefferson is the franchise player you say he is.
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Letting a perimeter player fly by to score doesn't hurt one's +/-. Got it. Thanks for the clarification.
 
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