Boston vs Utah for Hayward

[idiot]

Interesting to see the discussions around what Boston might or might not be able to do, including whether that includes moving on from IT.

I'm leaning toward the idea that Boston's position is a more precarious than we sometimes think. If they decide to move on from IT before they sign him to a max, especially, they can certainly do that and put some good pieces together. But I think the thing we're missing about this (& I hope Gordon recognizes) is that continuity takes time to develop. Whatever they do, Boston's not putting together prime LeBron, Bosh, and Wade. They're not going to have a super team immediately just because they have some big names. By the time they really get going and pose a clear conference championship threat, Horford will likely be fading in effectiveness.

Of course continuity and growth for the Jazz is also precarious, because it depends on health, consistency, player development and re-signings. But I don't think throwing a plan at Hayward that's contingent on trades, getting rid of several of their currently best players, all of which may or may not come to pass, should persuade him. Real contenders (unless you manage to get three of the top 10 players in the league, or LeBron) have usually developed over a period of at least a few years. I think that if even half of the balls we have in the air work out in our favor (though maybe that's too optimistic: Favors returning to somewhat normal health, Hood returning to health and becoming decently consistent, Hill re-signing and having decent health, Exum or Lyles taking a step forward, etc.), our prospects for real contention are at least as good or better than Boston's.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Interesting to see the discussions around what Boston might or might not be able to do, including whether that includes moving on from IT.

I'm leaning toward the idea that Boston's position is a more precarious than we sometimes think. If they decide to move on from IT before they sign him to a max, especially, they can certainly do that and put some good pieces together. But I think the thing we're missing about this (& I hope Gordon recognizes) is that continuity takes time to develop. Whatever they do, Boston's not putting together prime LeBron, Bosh, and Wade. They're not going to have a super team immediately just because they have some big names. By the time they really get going and pose a clear conference championship threat, Horford will likely be fading in effectiveness.

Of course continuity and growth for the Jazz is also precarious, because it depends on health, consistency, player development and re-signings. But I don't think throwing a plan at Hayward that's contingent on trades, getting rid of several of their currently best players, all of which may or may not come to pass, should persuade him. Real contenders (unless you manage to get three of the top 10 players in the league, or LeBron) have usually developed over a period of at least a few years. I think that if even half of the balls we have in the air work out in our favor (though maybe that's too optimistic: Favors returning to somewhat normal health, Hood returning to health and becoming decently consistent, Hill re-signing and having decent health, Exum or Lyles taking a step forward, etc.), our prospects for real contention are at least as good or better than Boston's.

Good post.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

The scenario that's keeping Jazz fans up at night is the one where the Celtics trade for Jimmy Butler in time to pitch Hayward that they're building a super team to win the EC. That's a team with IT, Butler, Hayward and Horford.

The Celtics are able to do this because IT is still on a cheap contract, leaving cap space to sign Gordon, at the same time that the Celtics have a #1 pick courtesy of Brooklyn. The Celtics can try to trade that pick for Butler and move enough other contracts to make it work. Then they can go over the cap to extend IT.

The question the Celtics are asking themselves is whether a capped out team with IT, Butler, Hayward and Horford takes the Celtics further than they got this year. Can that team beat the Cavs and compete with the Warriors? The answer is ''maybe.' Take Butler out of that scenario, and the answer is 'no.'

So the Celtics have to decide if they're willing to trade the #1 pick for Butler this offseason. They could go either way. They're reluctant to part with that pick.

Hayward has to decide if he's willing to join a Celtics team that isn't well put together and just embarrassed themselves. Once Hayward signs and IT extends, the Celtics' cap room to sign another max player is gone. It's a core of IT, Hayward, Horford and young talent. They could still trade a pick and other contracts for Butler if Chicago will take that deal.

Now maybe Hayward leaves the Jazz anyway, but the Celtics just showed how far they really are from contending. That probably undermines the discussion with Hayward, unless the Celtics make a bold move for Butler, a move that the Celtics are reluctant to make.

Chicago can throw a wrench by deciding that Butler is young and proven enough to build around. The Bulls have Butler locked in on a 4-year deal. Four years from now, Fultz may not prove to be better than Butler is today.

 

[NUMBERICA]

The Celtics have a veritable mountain of assets BESIDES this year's #1 pick. They could conceivably get Butler (or George) AND the #1 pick AND sign Hayward.

So I'm going to cross my fingers that the Celtics get swept more ruthlessly than the Jazz did and that the Bulls (and Pacers) are unreasonable in what they ask for to part with their star.

 

[Crawlnstall]

Boston really needs to decide what they wanna do, contend now or later. The #1 pick is a great asset, and if Boston keeps the pick then they are choosing to contend later, in 3-4 years at the soonest. In reality it takes at least 3 seasons for a top pick to really develop into a guy that can be a leader. By that point Horford will be 33/34, Thomas at 31 and Hayward at 29-ish. And that's if Fultz skyrockets quickly.That team doesnt scare me or would make me wanna go from Utah to Boston if I'm Hayward.

Now if Boston trades the pick....then I will be nervous. Hayward wants to win, and in Boston he can get an easier path to the ECF, but without a massive upgrade (besides adding in Hayward) they aren't gonna pass up Lebron while Thomas and Horford are still effective

 

[fishonjazz]

Boston really needs to decide what they wanna do, contend now or later.

Can't they do both? Use some of their good young players (avery bradley, crowder, smart, ollynik, etc) to acquire a win now stud (butler, george, etc) and try to get Gordon hayward too.

Go with thomas, hayward, horford, butler/george, jaylen brown, fultz, next year's top 3ish pick, and whatever else.

Cake and eat it too scenario.

 

[Miggs]

The Celtics have a veritable mountain of assets BESIDES this year's #1 pick. They could conceivably get Butler (or George) AND the #1 pick AND sign Hayward.

So I'm going to cross my fingers that the Celtics get swept more ruthlessly than the Jazz did and that the Bulls (and Pacers) are unreasonable in what they ask for to part with their star.

And absolutely none of this addresses their frontcourt problems.

 

[Miggs]

Can't they do both? Use some of their good young players (avery bradley, crowder, smart, ollynik, etc) to acquire a win now stud (butler, george, etc) and try to get Gordon hayward too.

Go with thomas, hayward, horford, butler/george, jaylen brown, fultz, next year's top 3ish pick, and whatever else.

Cake and eat it too scenario.

Those players you mentioned aren't nearly enticing enough for the Pacers or Bulls to consider a trade imo. A high pick would have to be added.

 

[fishonjazz]

Those players you mentioned aren't nearly enticing enough for the Pacers or Bulls to consider a trade imo. A high pick would have to be added.

Pacers might have to settle.
I agree about butler though.

Bradley is a stud btw. Way under rated.

Maybe they have to use horford in a trade too

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

Those players you mentioned aren't nearly enticing enough for the Pacers or Bulls to consider a trade imo. A high pick would have to be added.

Why would Chicago trade Jimmy Butler to the Celtics without getting Fultz back? Butler is a proven young superstar, an All NBA player locked up on a 4-year contract. Right now, Butler is their franchise player. Fultz will do well to follow the same path that Butler did and become a star in 3-4 years.

Chicago wanted the 2017 Brooklyn pick included in trade discussions with Boston last year. That was the impasse. Butler has only continued to emerge since then.

Boston has Brooklyn's 2018 pick, which should be top 5. They have Jaylen Brown, who has potential. Maybe that gets a conversation started, but I doubt it gets a deal done. The Bulls aren't going to trade Butler for guys like Marcus Smart, Avery Bradley or Terry Rozier. They'll get better offers from other teams, assuming they want to trade to begin with.

 

[The Thriller]

Hayward is the man here in Utah.

Hayward would be Thomas's rebounder in Boston.

He's not going to Boston.

The whole, "he has a better shot at winning in Boston" is laughable at best. The west isn't that strong right now. Golden State is a juggernaut. But for how much longer? Their salaries are about to explode and they're going to lose some valuable pieces.

The rest of the west isn't very strong. In years past, 3-4 teams could've competed for the championship. Not right now.

Houston doesn't scare anybody. San Antonio is formidable but old. Dallas is worthless. OKC will soon lose Westbrook. Phx has Booker and no one else. Clippers are going to rebuild. Portland is meh. Memphis is done. Lakers are years away. Sactown is a dumpster fire. Denver sucks.

The Jazz have as good of a shot at competing for the championship as anyone outside of Cleveland and Golden State. Seriously, the Jazz could've taken Houston. San Antonio without Parker or Kawhi. The Jazz are really close.

 

[elan_prodigy]

Hayward is the man here in Utah.

Hayward would be Thomas's rebounder in Boston.

He's not going to Boston.

The whole, "he has a better shot at winning in Boston" is laughable at best. The west isn't that strong right now. Golden State is a juggernaut. But for how much longer? Their salaries are about to explode and they're going to lose some valuable pieces.

The rest of the west isn't very strong. In years past, 3-4 teams could've competed for the championship. Not right now.

Houston doesn't scare anybody. San Antonio is formidable but old. Dallas is worthless. OKC will soon lose Westbrook. Phx has Booker and no one else. Clippers are going to rebuild. Portland is meh. Memphis is done. Lakers are years away. Sactown is a dumpster fire. Denver sucks.

The Jazz have as good of a shot at competing for the championship as anyone outside of Cleveland and Golden State. Seriously, the Jazz could've taken Houston. San Antonio without Parker or Kawhi. The Jazz are really close.

Agree with all of this.

The stars are aligning, we just need our STAR so we can capitalize on this window.

 

[idiot]

For what it's worth (and it could just be the blowout speaking), on the CelticsBlog page, the sentiment that's seeming to have the most momentum is:

Sign Hayward because he's young enough to still be in his prime to be useful in the 3-4 years when Brown, Fultz and next year's Nets pick are starting to become capable of winning. If that's what we're up against with the Celtics, I like our chances.

There's a few throwing around trade scenarios that will net them Butler while keeping Fultz or Anthony Davis or such in addition to Hayward, but they seem to not be getting much traction as realistic.

 

[enchilada_style]

For what it's worth (and it could just be the blowout speaking), on the CelticsBlog page, the sentiment that's seeming to have the most momentum is:

Sign Hayward because he's young enough to still be in his prime to be useful in the 3-4 years when Brown, Fultz and next year's Nets pick are starting to become capable of winning. If that's what we're up against with the Celtics, I like our chances.

There's a few throwing around trade scenarios that will net them Butler while keeping Fultz or Anthony Davis or such in addition to Hayward, but they seem to not be getting much traction as realistic.

That would be a wonderful situation for Gordo to jump into. lol.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

That would be a wonderful situation for Gordo to jump into. lol.

Why? The Celtics are acquiring good young talent, but do you really think they'll compete 3 - 4 years from now with the Sixers' haul of talent or the Bucks with Giannis? In the meantime, Hayward will be losing to Lebron every year in the first or second round.

Thinking, "Cool! We have a #1 pick, a top-5 pick next year and Jaylen Brown. We're going to dominate the league..." is wishful thinking.

Exum was a #5 pick. Favors was a #3 pick. Smart was a #6 pick. They're not dominating the league.

At the end of the day, the only real appeal of going to Boston is to get out of the Western Conference. A flawed team can win 53 games and get to the ECF right now. However, the Jazz are just a player or two away from being an installation in the WC like the Spurs.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

For what it's worth (and it could just be the blowout speaking), on the CelticsBlog page, the sentiment that's seeming to have the most momentum is:

Sign Hayward because he's young enough to still be in his prime to be useful in the 3-4 years when Brown, Fultz and next year's Nets pick are starting to become capable of winning. If that's what we're up against with the Celtics, I like our chances.

There's a few throwing around trade scenarios that will net them Butler while keeping Fultz or Anthony Davis or such in addition to Hayward, but they seem to not be getting much traction as realistic.

Celtics fans are a bit giddy and feel entitled. They think that they can probably get Hayward or Blake Griffin to sign with them even if they trade IT and they don't make a move for another All Star-caliber player. They think they can trade for Jimmy Butler without giving up this year's #1 pick.

They're also realizing that adding Hayward to the team they have now doesn't get them past the Cavs. Probably they lose 4-1 or maybe 4-2 instead of getting obliterated.

However, they're realizing that IT is probably the worst defensive liability at PG in the league, and that building an offense around him isn't going to create a real contender. Many Cs fans are ready to trade him.

 

[enchilada_style]

Why? The Celtics are acquiring good young talent, but do you really think they'll compete 3 - 4 years from now with the Sixers' haul of talent or the Bucks with Giannis? In the meantime, Hayward will be losing to Lebron every year in the first or second round.

Thinking, "Cool! We have a #1 pick, a top-5 pick next year and Jaylen Brown. We're going to dominate the league..." is wishful thinking.

Exum was a #5 pick. Favors was a #3 pick. Smart was a #6 pick. They're not dominating the league.

At the end of the day, the only real appeal of going to Boston is to get out of the Western Conference. A flawed team can win 53 games and get to the ECF right now. However, the Jazz are just a player or two away from being an installation in the WC like the Spurs.

I was being silly. I agree with everything you said.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Rgiss]

Link that shows he doesn't want to play with Thomas.

It's just an assumption. Hayward went to the Jazz coaching staff in 2014(?) and told them he wanted to be THE GUY with the Jazz. (from locke) Thought he could do it and obviously he did. Would he now want to take a step back when he wanted that step forward before? probably not.

 

[fishonjazz]

Why? The Celtics are acquiring good young talent, but do you really think they'll compete 3 - 4 years from now with the Sixers' haul of talent or the Bucks with Giannis? In the meantime, Hayward will be losing to Lebron every year in the first or second round.

Thinking, "Cool! We have a #1 pick, a top-5 pick next year and Jaylen Brown. We're going to dominate the league..." is wishful thinking.

Exum was a #5 pick. Favors was a #3 pick. Smart was a #6 pick. They're not dominating the league.

At the end of the day, the only real appeal of going to Boston is to get out of the Western Conference. A flawed team can win 53 games and get to the ECF right now. However, the Jazz are just a player or two away from being an installation in the WC like the Spurs.

I think he was being sarcastic

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

This is why I think Hayward will stay--Game 4 vs. the Clippers. Hayward goes out with food poisoning. Gobert is on a minutes restriction. The Jazz pull out a win with depth and good coaching despite CP and Crawford having good offensive games.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVsuVljJG3o