Can/Will Lyles make Favors expendable?

[Coach Ellis]

The Gobert/Favors front court pairing is unique in all of basketball. No other team comes close the the rim protection those two together provide. Instead of trying to break that up, the Jazz should be looking at finding ways to make it more effective on the offensive end.

Adding improved shooting to the perimeter (a more consistent Hood, healthy Burks, and adding George Hill and Joe Johnson all help in that endeavor) as well as better PG play and savvy vets to allow for more creativity in the scheme.

If everyone does the same thing, it makes it easier to defend. The trick is trying to deal with the outliers. The defensive dominance of a healthy Favors and Gobert is an outlier that needs to be utilized.

 

[green]

I didn't read all of your post I will later. But our team is designed to give us more possessions than our opponent in a game. We are dead last but what is the difference between what we hold opponents too? Obviously teams that run and gun will average more possessions across the season but not against us. Last season also wasn't the best indicator of that due to injuries.

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Great question. I'm not sure where to find that info. IF the Jazz were dead last in possessions, but their opponents had 3-5 less per game than Utah, then I'm sold. If they are equal or if Utah has less possessions than their opponent, then I'm not sold.

 

[Coach Ellis]

Great question. I'm not sure where to find that info. IF the Jazz were dead last in possessions, but their opponents had 3-5 less per game than Utah, then I'm sold. If they are equal or if Utah has less possessions than their opponent, then I'm not sold.

Yeah. Pace of play and number of possessions are only as valuable as they relate to each opponent. If the Jazz are using their defense to dictate the pace and style of play, it's a huge advantage to them.

 

[BTP]

If you shoot 45 from 2 you usually add another 20 shooting fouls which adds another 30 points on 75% shooting. Suddenly 120 ORtg before turnovers are taken into account. But if the opposing team knows you're never gonna shoot a 3 they're gonna pack the paint and your FG% drops to 30. What now?

 

[green]

If you shoot 45 from 2 you usually add another 20 shooting fouls which adds another 30 points on 75% shooting. Suddenly 120 ORtg before turnovers are taken into account. But if the opposing team knows you're never gonna shoot a 3 they're gonna pack the paint and your FG% drops to 30. What now?

Again, this is where someone like Lyles becomes so fascinating. He can shoot the three. He can take it to the hole. He can make free throws. Offensively, Lyles is a GM's potential wet dream.

As a rookie he shot 38% from three. He shot 44% from the floor and 70% from the FT line. In the summer league, Trey has shot 33/38 from the FT line. That is 87%.

If he can up his three point % to 40% and his FG to 52% and keep his FT around 85%...then give him 12 shots a night, 3 3pt attempts, and 4 FT's...look at these numbers:

pts off 3's: 3.6
pts off 2's: 9.4
Pts off FT's: 3.4

Total pts: 16.4 pts. Off 12-14 shots. That's crazy.

Favors gives you 16 pts off 15-19 shots a game. Lyles could potentially give you the same amount of points with an extra 1-5 possessions a game.

Per 36, Favors gets you 9 rebs. Lyles is at 8. Lyles isn't a good defender. Not at all. BUT, he can be passable if you have Gobert behind him and IF he can become a better rebounder ala Boozer. While his defense sucks, if he can gobble up rebounds he can end possessions. Not the best defense ever, but it can be effective.

Lyles gets 12.6% of the rebs. Favors is at 14.8%. That is not a huge difference. Lyles can get there.

NOW, I'm not saying Lyles is anywhere NEAR the player Favors is right now. BUT, what I am saying is that there are signs there that would lead a GM to think that in a year or two Favors may become too expensive and Lyles could do a good enough job to afford moving Favors and keeping Gobert to help out with the lack of Favors.

 

[BTP]

Again, this is where someone like Lyles becomes so fascinating. He can shoot the three. He can take it to the hole. He can make free throws. Offensively, Lyles is a GM's potential wet dream.

As a rookie he shot 38% from three. He shot 44% from the floor and 70% from the FT line. In the summer league, Trey has shot 33/38 from the FT line. That is 87%.

If he can up his three point % to 40% and his FG to 52% and keep his FT around 85%...then give him 12 shots a night, 3 3pt attempts, and 4 FT's...look at these numbers:

pts off 3's: 3.6
pts off 2's: 9.4
Pts off FT's: 3.4

Total pts: 16.4 pts. Off 12-14 shots. That's crazy.

Favors gives you 16 pts off 15-19 shots a game. Lyles could potentially give you the same amount of points with an extra 1-5 possessions a game.

Per 36, Favors gets you 9 rebs. Lyles is at 8. Lyles isn't a good defender. Not at all. BUT, he can be passable if you have Gobert behind him and IF he can become a better rebounder ala Boozer. While his defense sucks, if he can gobble up rebounds he can end possessions. Not the best defense ever, but it can be effective.

Lyles gets 12.6% of the rebs. Favors is at 14.8%. That is not a huge difference. Lyles can get there.

NOW, I'm not saying Lyles is anywhere NEAR the player Favors is right now. BUT, what I am saying is that there are signs there that would lead a GM to think that in a year or two Favors may become too expensive and Lyles could do a good enough job to afford moving Favors and keeping Gobert to help out with the lack of Favors.

Gobert is unplayable in certain situations. There will be fast lineups that will ****ing ruin his day and have done last year. Favors is a top defender against small ball, he saves the Jazz a lot of points per game. There is no telling that Lyles will reach his level. That's why you give him playing time and see what happens. But trading Favors is a no-no unless someone letts you rob a bank in the process.
Also 52% and 40 from three. Do you know how hard that is? Upping these %s even by 1-2 w/o it being noise. LIke sustainable level. THat's two summers of hard work.
If I take the gold standard for playmaking bigs(Which I don't see with Lyles yet - He's got good vision, but he can't put it on the floor and make a play)for comparison, Dirk's most accurate season(10/11) he shot 51.7% from the field and 39.3% from three. He's facing triple teams while Lyles is the guy where defenders help off. I think the improvement you envision is very unlikely.

 

[green]

That's why you give him playing time and see what happens. But trading Favors is a no-no unless someone letts you rob a bank in the process.

I have no problem with what you say. I would say that Lyles will never be used how Dirk was used. Also, we are a year, at least, away from seriously thinking about having Lyles take over for Favors.

Finally, you have to move Gobert or Favors. I would much rather keep Favors and move him to the C position. But, from what I've been told (which may be bull crap) is that the Jazz LOVE Gobert. That he isn't going anywhere. That they envision Gobert, Exum and Hayward doing what Stockton and Malone couldn't do. So....that is where I come from, trying to figure out how to move Favors and keep Gobert.

BUT, in my opinion, you keep Favors and move Gobert. I like Favors so much more than Gobert.

 

[BTP]

I have no problem with what you say. I would say that Lyles will never be used how Dirk was used. Also, we are a year, at least, away from seriously thinking about having Lyles take over for Favors.

Finally, you have to move Gobert or Favors. I would much rather keep Favors and move him to the C position. But, from what I've been told (which may be bull crap) is that the Jazz LOVE Gobert. That he isn't going anywhere. That they envision Gobert, Exum and Hayward doing what Stockton and Malone couldn't do. So....that is where I come from, trying to figure out how to move Favors and keep Gobert.

BUT, in my opinion, you keep Favors and move Gobert. I like Favors so much more than Gobert.

I'd keep both unless I get a killer offer or it turns out that one of them is unplayable in playoff setting(Which would most likely be Rudy )

 

[SCS]

I have no problem with what you say. I would say that Lyles will never be used how Dirk was used. Also, we are a year, at least, away from seriously thinking about having Lyles take over for Favors.

Finally, you have to move Gobert or Favors. I would much rather keep Favors and move him to the C position. But, from what I've been told (which may be bull crap) is that the Jazz LOVE Gobert. That he isn't going anywhere. That they envision Gobert, Exum and Hayward doing what Stockton and Malone couldn't do. So....that is where I come from, trying to figure out how to move Favors and keep Gobert.

BUT, in my opinion, you keep Favors and move Gobert. I like Favors so much more than Gobert.

There is absolutely no way the Jazz should let Gobert go. He's the most valuable player on our team right now. He makes our defense work. It's not easy to find a rim protector much less one that is elite at a young age with rare physical traits. Hayward is a good player, Favors is a good player... but they are both replaceable. Gobert isn't. The Jazz have been looking for a player like Gobert for 20+ years. They can't lose him now. He's the only player on the team that I would give max money at the moment.

 

[LoPo]

This has been an excellent conversation fellas. Well done with all of the points made here. This is a difficult and interesting topic debate for sure.

Personally, I think Lyles has serious star potential. I know it's summer league, but are you seeing how he's shooting contested 3's both from spot up and off the dribble? What an asset he would be. Offensively, is there a 6'10" player in the league doing that outside of Durant? Draymond can shoot the 3 but it's primarily spot up.

Like somebody mentioned, we shouldn't do anything for a year. It makes no sense to make an evaluation until we see a playoff dynamic. And it's not fair to label Lyles a crappy defender for life after only one year of limited college ball and one year of limited pro ball.

I'm so happy we have so many options.

Sent from my VS980 4G using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[BTP]

This has been an excellent conversation fellas. Well done with all of the points made here. This is a difficult and interesting topic debate for sure.

Personally, I think Lyles has serious star potential. I know it's summer league, but are you seeing how he's shooting contested 3's both from spot up and off the dribble? What an asset he would be. Offensively, is there a 6'10" player in the league doing that outside of Durant? Draymond can shoot the 3 but it's primarily spot up.

Like somebody mentioned, we shouldn't do anything for a year. It makes no sense to make an evaluation until we see a playoff dynamic. And it's not fair to label Lyles a crappy defender for life after only one year of limited college ball and one year of limited pro ball.

I'm so happy we have so many options.

Sent from my VS980 4G using JazzFanz mobile app

Unless there's some magic I don't expect Lyles to discover his Latin dancer happy feet and loose hips.

 

[fishonjazz]

If you shoot 45 from 2 you usually add another 20 shooting fouls which adds another 30 points on 75% shooting.

Good point

 

[fishonjazz]

This has been an excellent conversation fellas. Well done with all of the points made here.

Agreed. A good read.

 

[VINYLONE]

I'm ready to see this guys full potential. The stuff he did last year was a glimpse of a guy who can be a star forward in the league.

Um, definitely not.

 

[Miggs]

If (Lyles) can up his three point % to 40% and his FG to 52% and keep his FT around 85%...then give him 12 shots a night, 3 3pt attempts, and 4 FT's...look at these numbers:

pts off 3's: 3.6
pts off 2's: 9.4
Pts off FT's: 3.4

Total pts: 16.4 pts. Off 12-14 shots. That's crazy.

Favors gives you 16 pts off 15-19 shots a game. Lyles could potentially give you the same amount of points with an extra 1-5 possessions a game.

LULZ. You can't make this **** up. Favors scored 16.4 points on 13.1 shots per game last year which is exactly what you said would be "crazy" if Lyles did as if Favors couldn't do it. Which he can. 'Cause he did. Genius.

 

[The Fresh Prince]

Um, definitely not.

Explain.

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

The Gobert/Favors front court pairing is unique in all of basketball. No other team comes close the the rim protection those two together provide. Instead of trying to break that up, the Jazz should be looking at finding ways to make it more effective on the offensive end.

Adding improved shooting to the perimeter (a more consistent Hood, healthy Burks, and adding George Hill and Joe Johnson all help in that endeavor) as well as better PG play and savvy vets to allow for more creativity in the scheme.

If everyone does the same thing, it makes it easier to defend. The trick is trying to deal with the outliers. The defensive dominance of a healthy Favors and Gobert is an outlier that needs to be utilized.

Yep, people seem to be obsessed with the idea that we absolutely must have spacing from the pf spot. That's all fine and dandy, but good luck finding someone who's as good defensively as Favors. Otherwise, you're sacrificing defense to improve the offense.

Instead, how about just surrounding Favors and Rudy with better shooters? There's more than one way to skin a cat, and Utah can improve their spacing without sacrificing defense.

 

[Cappy_Smurf]

Finally, you have to move Gobert or Favors.

This is false, and anyone who thinks we should trade Rudy should be locked in a rubber room.

 

[LoPo]

The last few years, elite playoff teams run lineups where one guy is on the court who is the grunt work guy and the other 4 guys can shoot the 3 or very deep range in LA's case.

GS: Curry, Thompson, Barnes, Iggy and Draymond or Curry, Thompson, Barnes, Draymond and Bogut.

SA: Parker, Green, Kawhi, LA and Duncan or Parker, Manu, Green, Kawhi and LA.

Cleveland: Kyrie, Smith, LBJ, Tristan and Love or Kyrie, Smith, Jefferson, LBJ and Tristan

OKC: RW, Waiters, Robertson, KD and Adams - they did play Adams and Kanter together, but I think they are an outlier because they haven't done it successfully long enough and they are the only team with 2 superstar ball handler scorers.

Against those lineups in the playoffs, I feel like Favors and Gobert will struggle on both ends of the court. A guy like Tristan (with zero offense) can exist because everybody else can shoot AND he can guard perimeter guys pretty well for his size. I feel like Gobert will be our Tristan Thompson in the upcoming playoffs. It could be Favors, but Gobert is just a freak athletically with that length. He's truly a unicorn. For most of the playoffs when it gets to crunch time next to those small lineups, I think our lineup will be: Exum/Hill, Hood/Hill, Hayward/Hood, Hayward/Favors/Lyles, Gobert/Favors.

If that becomes the case, I could see us trading Favors. It all depends on how people are used this season and the next playoffs. If Favors becomes our equivalent of Love, I think he's gone. Love played pretty well for Cleveland in a couple games, and for Cleveland's roster, lack of flexibility and intent to spend whatever it takes, he might stick there. If we had the same situation with Favors (good player but doesn't help us as much in crunch time), I think we would trade him because we have more roster flexibility and we can't spend into the luxury.

This year is so massive for us in so many ways. Not only potential, but what do we do from here....

 

[framer]

The last few years, elite playoff teams run lineups where one guy is on the court who is the grunt work guy and the other 4 guys can shoot the 3 or very deep range in LA's case.

GS: Curry, Thompson, Barnes, Iggy and Draymond or Curry, Thompson, Barnes, Draymond and Bogut.

SA: Parker, Green, Kawhi, LA and Duncan or Parker, Manu, Green, Kawhi and LA.

Cleveland: Kyrie, Smith, LBJ, Tristan and Love or Kyrie, Smith, Jefferson, LBJ and Tristan

OKC: RW, Waiters, Robertson, KD and Adams - they did play Adams and Kanter together, but I think they are an outlier because they haven't done it successfully long enough and they are the only team with 2 superstar ball handler scorers.

Against those lineups in the playoffs, I feel like Favors and Gobert will struggle on both ends of the court. A guy like Tristan (with zero offense) can exist because everybody else can shoot AND he can guard perimeter guys pretty well for his size. I feel like Gobert will be our Tristan Thompson in the upcoming playoffs. It could be Favors, but Gobert is just a freak athletically with that length. He's truly a unicorn. For most of the playoffs when it gets to crunch time next to those small lineups, I think our lineup will be: Exum/Hill, Hood/Hill, Hayward/Hood, Hayward/Favors/Lyles, Gobert/Favors.

If that becomes the case, I could see us trading Favors. It all depends on how people are used this season and the next playoffs. If Favors becomes our equivalent of Love, I think he's gone. Love played pretty well for Cleveland in a couple games, and for Cleveland's roster, lack of flexibility and intent to spend whatever it takes, he might stick there. If we had the same situation with Favors (good player but doesn't help us as much in crunch time), I think we would trade him because we have more roster flexibility and we can't spend into the luxury.

This year is so massive for us in so many ways. Not only potential, but what do we do from here....

Except the Jazz, as currently constructed are long, versatile, and can defend. No other team really has that because it is really hard to build. Just having legitimate NBA players 8 or 9 deep is going to be a new experience for us and will likely hide whatever offensive issues we experienced with a Gobert-Favors frontcourt. We have never really had the ability (for years anyway) to kick the ball out to an open guy who can hit the catch and shoot 3 at 40%. We have 5 of those guys (Burks, Johnson, Ingles, Lyles, and Hill with Hood trending that way) now. The paint is about to become a whole lot less crowded that we are used to. That will be good for Burks as well.