But this is chicken and egg. He is meaningfully making the team more competitive and it’s clear as day. It’s going to be hard to tank with him on the floor with competent vets.
Collier’s Future
- Thread starter David Hume
- Start date
Yeah, but Im saying if he had a bunch of garbage around him, it would be hard for him to look good.
The Jazz have great play finishers on the team, so it really lets Collier cook as a table setter.
I would argue by saying that they are 4-13 since he started and that we had several games in that stretch of sitting players on purpose. This includes the tankiest part of our schedule. This is when we played BKN, CHO, NOP x2, etc. It doesn’t get more transparently tanky than that.
But don’t this as a mark against Collier….I think he deserves the credit more than the situation. I think his confidence is a reflection of his own individual improvement (and also having that confidence in the first place) rather than a result of his environment. It’s a chicken or egg thing, but I’d give more credit to the individual vs the situation.
Having said that, I do think the situation helps but it’s less about the quality/competence of players around him….but more of the types of players he’s surrounded with. This roster is dying for someone who can dribble and is unselfish.
W/L wasnt any part of my point. Just having games be close and somewhat competitive. Im not sure what the point differential has been in those games, because there were some big blowout losses, but a lot of games in that stretch have been close games.
And yeah, the competence/quality does matter. You don't get an opportunity to make game winning shots/plays in clutch minutes if the entire roster around you is bad players.
Will a player develop regardless? Maybe, but I think there is significant acceleration of that fact when put in better situations.
He is doing what he’s doing while being:
-a little shaky at finishing
-not good at drawing fouls (yet, but he and his game are built for it)
-a bad three-point shooter.
If by year three he:
-becomes a strong finisher
-draws fouls at a decent rate, and
-shoots well enough from 3 to draw defenders
He will be at the threshold of an All-Star bid.
-a little shaky at finishing
-not good at drawing fouls (yet, but he and his game are built for it)
-a bad three-point shooter.
If by year three he:
-becomes a strong finisher
-draws fouls at a decent rate, and
-shoots well enough from 3 to draw defenders
He will be at the threshold of an All-Star bid.
I'm still laughing at all these NBA casual *****eads who called him the worst player ever. Some Raptor fan claimed they fleeced us for Kelly and Ochai and laughed at us picking Collier. Dude will be top-20 in APG before the season is done. Next season dude will be top-10.
Thing that struck me about Collier yesterday was that I think he has just enough unorthodoxy about his game to complement his speed. If it was all just speed and power, I think he'd be easier to corral for defenses. But, in my relatively uninformed opinion, he's making plays, moves, passes that are just unexpected enough for the situation to make it hard for defenders to really anticipate what he's doing.
Point is, the team was very bad. They were 4-13 and were against the worst of the worst in the league. If team competence is measured in how good we were, we were straight awful. I think the roster complexion that allows him to dominate the ball freely and his own personal improvements is what led to his confidence and development. Would not look at this stretch and say that you need to have a good team around young players to develop them because we were in fact very bad and sat our best players countless times. We also have several young players, Collier is the one who leaped forward so I think he deserves the credit versus team competence.
framer
Well-Known Member
Look at what happened in Houston once they added some actual NBA vet talent. It wasn't even top shelf, but their young players have come along faster.
He is a 20 year old rookie that is just getting his NBA legs under him. We've already seen a huge improvement in his play. His handle looks a bit tighter, his shooting and defense have improved.
His 3pt shot is not great, but it has improved dramatically over the first couple months. I don'r cring when he shoots an open 3 now. His mid range is pretty good. His finishing at the rim has improved but still has a way to gom
He has great court vision. I'd say things are looking good. Still makes some bad passes, but somewhat expected for a young rookie. I feel confident that he'll outplay his draft position by a lot. If he works hard to continue improving, he could be really good.
His 3pt shot is not great, but it has improved dramatically over the first couple months. I don'r cring when he shoots an open 3 now. His mid range is pretty good. His finishing at the rim has improved but still has a way to gom
He has great court vision. I'd say things are looking good. Still makes some bad passes, but somewhat expected for a young rookie. I feel confident that he'll outplay his draft position by a lot. If he works hard to continue improving, he could be really good.
framer
Well-Known Member
Do you really think if we had played the players who could have been made available the minutes that a team trying to win would play them, especially down the stretch, we would have been 4-13? We have lost a lot of games with 4th quarter chicanery.
framer
Well-Known Member
Even at the player he is now, he has outplayed his draft position by a lot. He was damn near the last player taken in the first round of a bad draft.
I never said the development would not happen if those guys did play. What I did say is that he deserves credit and that having the freedom/role to play this way was more important than the overall competency of the team. Collier is very specific in the sense that he needs to have the ball in his hands, so with or without those I think the development would have come as long as you give him the ball. If his role was to stand in the corner, I'm not sure it would matter if those guys were in or out.
The best thing about him is how he makes *every* other player better.
The other players are licking their chops to move and crash and run because they know they'll get rewarded.
He plays very energetic defense and fights successfully through screens.
The dude is FAAAST. He had an end to end fast break last night that had everyone humming with excitement- the speed was 1% even in the NBA- there is probably nobody actually faster in the league and a very few in his category.
His on the move middles are looking smooth, and his three is visibly improving over time.
His turnovers and at the basket shots need some work, but they are probably some of the easiest things to fix.
He has a Sexton attack dog mentality with a pass first philosophy- he IS our PG of the present and future and a potential all-NBA player. All the things that made him the #1 recruit coming into college are surfacing and got my mouth watering for the future.
- Key gets the ball in better places to drive or shoot.
- Lauri/Kessler/Collins start spamming dunks at the rim.
- Flip plays with more confidence and they have a good two-man game going
The other players are licking their chops to move and crash and run because they know they'll get rewarded.
He plays very energetic defense and fights successfully through screens.
The dude is FAAAST. He had an end to end fast break last night that had everyone humming with excitement- the speed was 1% even in the NBA- there is probably nobody actually faster in the league and a very few in his category.
His on the move middles are looking smooth, and his three is visibly improving over time.
His turnovers and at the basket shots need some work, but they are probably some of the easiest things to fix.
He has a Sexton attack dog mentality with a pass first philosophy- he IS our PG of the present and future and a potential all-NBA player. All the things that made him the #1 recruit coming into college are surfacing and got my mouth watering for the future.
homeytennis
Well-Known Member
Is he the fastest of them all?
David Hume
Well-Known Member
“They’ll never catch him!”
I see what you guys are saying about finishing... and I'll add, again, THE NASH DRIBBLE. Given his specific athletic gifts, it's easily the best thing he could add for the sake of improved finishing.
Defenses have to time-up their responses to plays as they develop—and so the more you can keep them guessing about how the play is going to end, the harder it is for them to time-up responses. Jokic is so deadly because it's virtually impossible to anticipate how a play will develop and end. Right now, I think it's a bit too easy to predict what Collier is going to do when he's deep in the paint (where finishing happens). If there's a threat for him to take is speedy dribble through the paint and onto the other side of the floor and make a play, then he'll open up better (i.e. more efficient and harder to guard) opportunities to finish.
Defenses have to time-up their responses to plays as they develop—and so the more you can keep them guessing about how the play is going to end, the harder it is for them to time-up responses. Jokic is so deadly because it's virtually impossible to anticipate how a play will develop and end. Right now, I think it's a bit too easy to predict what Collier is going to do when he's deep in the paint (where finishing happens). If there's a threat for him to take is speedy dribble through the paint and onto the other side of the floor and make a play, then he'll open up better (i.e. more efficient and harder to guard) opportunities to finish.
the dude doesn't even slow down by 1% when he's dribbling. It's ****ing awesome. It's one of the main reasons I got so hyped about him so quickly.