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Collier Starting Over Keyonte: Are We Happy?

bigmike said:
I'm fine with it. I still think Keyonte has a higher ceiling (at PG, and/or off the ball) but if this is just part of his development arc, so be it. Looks like he'll still get plenty of minutes regardless.

Keyonte's struggles (regression?) this year has me slightly surprised. The lack of improvement in overall efficiency (shooting, especially finishing in the paint/getting to the line) will need to change if he's going to stick, either here or anywhere. That said, he's barely 21, so I'm not ready to make any broad-stroke statements about his long-term potential.

In the meantime, it will be good to see what Collier brings to the table as a starting PG. I still think he projects as a backup PG on a playoff/title contender but might as well give him run and see what we have there.
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I think Keyonte has gotten better, but he doesnt play hard. His biggest improvement is his body language.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Harkless's current DBPM would put him in the top 10 of all DBPM. Only other perimeter players with that high of DBPM are Dyson Daniels, Cason Wallace, Kris Dunn, and Amen Thompson. His size is basically irrelevant when compared to Juzang, he plays bigger.
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And yeah, Im super high on Harkless. His playstyle is potentially an ideal 5th man. Elite defense, can shoot, rebounds and plays hard. His G-League stats suggest he's potentially able to do something with the ball in his hands off a tilted defense.

I'll also point out Harkless has looked visibly injured since that hard fall on his *** the other game, and he's still playing great defense. Shouldn't really be prioritizing defensive liabilities on the wing just because they are a couple of inches taller.
 
Keyonte isn't a natural PG. He's better when he plays off the ball and can focus on scoring or simple plays. He's been making real progress in working with Walker in pick-and-roll, but he's too slow at processing to run a fast and free offense. So if you think of him as more of a 2-guard then it's really Sexton who is starting over him. That makes sense given how well Sexton usually plays and that the Jazz are currently shopping him.

I think the future will be Keyonte starting at the 1, but he'll be next to a big guard or wing who initiates the offense. I still see Collier as a backup longer term, although Collier seems to be improving by the day.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
And yeah, Im super high on Harkless. His playstyle is potentially an ideal 5th man. Elite defense, can shoot, rebounds and plays hard. His G-League stats suggest he's potentially able to do something with the ball in his hands off a tilted defense.

I'll also point out Harkless has looked visibly injured since that hard fall on his *** the other game, and he's still playing great defense. Shouldn't really be prioritizing defensive liabilities on the wing just because they are a couple of inches taller.
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Harkless needs to refine how he scores in the NBA vs. the Gleague, but he has the potential to be the new Wesley Matthews.
 
Keyonte is worse than Clarkson. I checked the other night where he ranked in the league shooting. It was something like 6th worse in the league at 2 and like 16th worse in the league shooting the 3. You'd think maybe he's a defensive player with such poor shooting? No, he's in the bottom at defense as well.

Just a really poor player honestly.

Edit: he's also shown almost 0 change in his percentages from this year to last as well
 
Seems like Hardy is giving up on the idea of Keyonte being a starting type of a guard... which is by no means shocking. Pretty much since the very beginning a ton of people on this site have been saying that he looks like just another microwave scorer off the bench with horrible defense and even worse effort on defense. A lot was riding on his willingness and determination to work on the defensive end, but there have been about zero signs of him giving a damn about D.

So... This seems like a perfectly natural transition for him into a more natural role for him. And I'm good with it... You gave him the chance to show you more, he not only didn't show any improvements when it comes to ability but also didn't show much of an effort either.

So... Next man up. Next prospect with a shot of being a starting guard gets promoted. He has different set of challenges and IMO he, too , is probably a long shot to become the guy, but that's one of the pluses of a tanking team - you can afford to experiment and actually see if any of those guys will rise to the occasion.
 
Ferguson_Mellochill said:
Harkless needs to refine how he scores in the NBA vs. the Gleague, but he has the potential to be the new Wesley Matthews.
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You can tell he's nervous out there to do anything on offense that isnt an open shot. When the trades happen and the team goes into super-tank mode, they will give him more reps trying to do stuff.
 
stitches said:
Seems like Hardy is giving up on the idea of Keyonte being a starting type of a guard... which is by no means shocking. Pretty much since the very beginning a ton of people on this site have been saying that he looks like just another microwave scorer off the bench with horrible defense and even worse effort on defense. A lot was riding on his willingness and determination to work on the defensive end, but there have been about zero signs of him giving a damn about D.

So... This seems like a perfectly natural transition for him into a more natural role for him. And I'm good with it... You gave him the chance to show you more, he not only didn't show any improvements when it comes to ability but also didn't show much of an effort either.

So... Next man up. Next prospect with a shot of being a starting guard gets promoted. He has different set of challenges and IMO he, too , is probably a long shot to become the guy, but that's one of the pluses of a tanking team - you can afford to experiment and actually see if any of those guys will rise to the occasion.
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I'll push back on that. Is it where it needs to be? No, but his body language and effort have improved on defense. Still a ways to go, but he's gotten better on that front.
 
I like it. We’ll never become a contender without good defense and playmaking. Collier has averaged 8.6 assists per game in the last 10 games where he played more than 25 minutes per game. At that pace, he would rank 6th in the league, just ahead of Harden (8.3 AST per game) and behind Haliburton (8.7 AST per game) this season. Not bad for a kid who was 19 years old less than four months ago.
 
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I like it a lot. I am not a Keyonte fan, because defense is the most important thing to me along with effort. Keyonte is obviously one of the worst defenders in the NBA and lack of effort is a huge contributor to that. Additionally, I don't love chuckers but I am more fine with them when they take good shots. I feel like his shot selection can be really poor sometimes and he will lean more towards contested shots. On the other side, I really like Collier and his effort. He absolutely deserves being a starter over Keyonte and I hope Keyonte learns from it.
 
Thee Idiotic Minivan K said:
I’m good with him being a 6th man in the league but I’m not in favor of him losing his job to a rookie if they know they are soon to be trading Sexton. If that’s the case the Jazz should’ve waited a week or two when they eventually trade Sexton. Different players respond differently. Not sure how happy he is about losing his spot to Collier
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Then he should outplay Collier which shouldn't be that huge of a leap for him. If Collier is playing better then Collier should get the reps. Collier has been amazing given his situation for the last handful of games. I'd like to see more until the league figures him out.
 
stitches said:
Seems like Hardy is giving up on the idea of Keyonte being a starting type of a guard... which is by no means shocking. Pretty much since the very beginning a ton of people on this site have been saying that he looks like just another microwave scorer off the bench with horrible defense and even worse effort on defense. A lot was riding on his willingness and determination to work on the defensive end, but there have been about zero signs of him giving a damn about D.

So... This seems like a perfectly natural transition for him into a more natural role for him. And I'm good with it... You gave him the chance to show you more, he not only didn't show any improvements when it comes to ability but also didn't show much of an effort either.

So... Next man up. Next prospect with a shot of being a starting guard gets promoted. He has different set of challenges and IMO he, too , is probably a long shot to become the guy, but that's one of the pluses of a tanking team - you can afford to experiment and actually see if any of those guys will rise to the occasion.
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I wouldn't read too much into this. Collier is a more natural point guard, and quite frankly, he's the ONLY point guard on the roster. If the Jazz come away with Dylan Harper or Kasparas Jakucionis in the draft, then that guy will be starting in the backcourt with Keyonte most likely starting at the 2-guard. Playing Keyonte on the ball full time has been good for his development, but I think the Jazz envision another big guard or wing initiating most of the offense.

Jazz are also shopping Collin Sexton for the next 10 days. See what happens after the trade deadline.
 
kcgar said:
I like it a lot. I am not a Keyonte fan, because defense is the most important thing to me along with effort. Keyonte is obviously one of the worst defenders in the NBA and lack of effort is a huge contributor to that. Additionally, I don't love chuckers but I am more fine with them when they take good shots. I feel like his shot selection can be really poor sometimes and he will lean more towards contested shots. On the other side, I really like Collier and his effort. He absolutely deserves being a starter over Keyonte and I hope Keyonte learns from it.
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I dont think he takes terrible shots (like he's not out there taking Svi/THT shots). The bigger issue to me is that he doesnt get enough great shots. It's just a bunch of mediocre shots
 
I still hold out some hope that Keyonte develops into either a more well-rounded player, or at least a more dangerous 6th-man scorer. I think his personality is interesting because he comes across as someone who takes the game and practice very seriously, but he is also someone who seems caught up in the "aesthetics" of basketball. Like he was doing little hops down the court with his dribble in his rookie year. Maybe it's just naive optimism, but I feel like when he realizes the NBA might leave him behind he might start working hard and improving in the missing gaps in his game, and not just "looking the part" as a scorer.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
I dont think he takes terrible shots (like he's not out there taking Svi/THT shots). The bigger issue to me is that he doesnt get enough great shots. It's just a bunch of mediocre shots
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He does take some good shots but not enough. I think he takes terrible shots when the shot clock gets low instead of passing to Lauri etc. Sometimes, he will just dribble the ball until the shot clock gets low instead of moving the ball.
 
Keyonte has had stretches of looking like a starting level guard, offensively. Go look at his November/December splits where he was shooting about 54% efg%, on about 24% usg%.

Here is a list of guards with usg% above 20% sorted by efg% and you can see that Keyonte would be right there if he kept up that efficiency: https://www.nba.com/stats/players/a..._PCT*G*20&PlayerPosition=G&dir=A&sort=EFG_PCT

He's also a good enough passer (27.4% ast%, 2/1 ast/to ratio) that he doesn't need to be branded as just a microwave scorer or can only come off the bench guy. He's a young guard who needs to be more consistent and needs to play defense. He's still got a tone of potential.

I would bet that this benching is a motivation thing, and not some indictment on where the Jazz see Keyonte's future being.
 
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