Conspiracy Theory Corner

[Bawse Dawg]

Idk what draft picks it would take, but it's definitely worth the risk depending on what other moves you can make. He's that good. You'd have a team of Kawhi/Lauri for 3 years which gives you a good 3 year window if you manage Kawhis health (yes, I know, risk) but he would potentially be the best player in Jazz history

I’d manage to get excited about it if it actually happened. But I won’t be holding my breath or worrying too much about what we would give up.

 

[mhindy]

Main issue with BI is the extension. If they had something in place that was relatively team friendly I'd be on board.

 

[fishonjazz]

Both sides of the court matter, and the defense in the second half of the season (when we quit) was not all on Collins. In the same way that I can say Sexton played awesome, I can say John Collins played awesome in the second half of last season. Collins had a massive improvement over the first half of the season.

Fair

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[MT Steve]

Both sides of the court matter, and the defense in the second half of the season (when we quit) was not all on Collins. In the same way that I can say Sexton played awesome, I can say John Collins played awesome in the second half of last season. Collins had a massive improvement over the first half of the season.

If he's unable to play the 5 without making your team's rim protection be absolutely rock bottom, then I don't really care what he does on offense.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

If he's unable to play the 5 without making your team's rim protection be absolutely rock bottom, then I don't really care what he does on offense.

With or without trading for John Collins the Pelicans currently have no rim protection outside of a rookie center.

You are emotionally invested in Walker and Collins blocks his minutes so you have an overly critical view in Collins even when he was contributing positively

 

[KqWIN]

If he's unable to play the 5 without making your team's rim protection be absolutely rock bottom, then I don't really care what he does on offense.

If you willfully choose to have an incomplete view of a player, I suppose I cannot change that. Just don’t accuse me of being the one closing my eyes.

 

[MT Steve]

If you choose to have an incomplete view of a player, I suppose I cannot change that.

The person who's ignoring the dramatically negative impact he has on defense is not me.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Main issue with BI is the extension. If they had something in place that was relatively team friendly I'd be on board.

Sure, but if the deal amounts to Collins and a first, you can view it as paying to get off Collins while getting a more talented player who fits your team better.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The person who's ignoring the dramatically negative impact he has on defense is not me.

You are also ignoring the other years of Collins career where he was a positive impact defender....

Maybe Utah was the problem, not Collins

 

[MT Steve]

With or without trading for John Collins the Pelicans currently have no rim protection outside of a rookie center.

You are emotionally invested in Walker and Collins blocks his minutes so you have an overly critical view in Collins even when he was contributing positively

The Jazz could trade Walker today and I'd still have the same opinion.

You are also ignoring the other years of Collins career where he was a positive impact defender....

Maybe Utah was the problem, not Collins

You mean when he played the 4 beside Capela at the 5?

 

[KqWIN]

The person who's ignoring the dramatically negative impact he has on defense is not me.

I did not ignore it. I consider both sides of the floor and context. You choose to willfully ignore that. My opinion of Collins is based on the entirety of his play and the context. You are outspoken about ignoring things and that’s why you have the opinion you do.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I’m telling ya, if there were an Ingram trade happening…..it would look exactly as it does right now. Lauri -> GSW is more likely Ainge pretending like he has other options.

Lauri alone already takes us out of the “guaranteed top 5-6” conversation. Once we’re beyond that, we’re mainly talking small cuts at top 4 chances and I’m ok with that.

Btw, I’m not sure that Ingram alone produces more wins the the duo of Collins+Kessler over 82 games.

And if GS was the other suitor for BI it would make some sense to keep them on the line.

With BI it could be a stealth tank move if the guy plays 40-50 games. I just would try to avoid paying him this offseason unless he’s gonna take 35M a year… he’s looking for max but maybe sees the writing on the wall. Either way I’d play hardball and risk him walking if I had to. You’d at least end up with some cap space so not the end of the world. I’d probably rather just not and move Kessler somewhere else for draft comp.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The Jazz could trade Walker today and I'd still have the same opinion.


You mean when he played the 4 beside Capela at the 5?

Ok? The point is his entire career he's been a positive defender. Maybe, just maybe, being on the Jazz (who explicitly said coaching defense was not a priority) might have been the biggest contributing factor, not John Collins playing.

Yes, when Walker played the team was dramatically better in defense, because that's the only reason Walker Kessler is in the NBA, to be a defender.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Mike Conley first year in Utah he rated out as a negative defender among many advanced defensive stats and was barely positive on O. One of his worst advance stats seasons since his rookie contract years. Sometimes guys just take time to adjust to a new team..

 

[KqWIN]

And if GS was the other suitor for BI it would make some sense to keep them on the line.

With BI it could be a stealth tank move if the guy plays 40-50 games. I just would try to avoid paying him this offseason unless he’s gonna take 35M a year… he’s looking for max but maybe sees the writing on the wall. Either way I’d play hardball and risk him walking if I had to. You’d at least end up with some cap space so not the end of the world. I’d probably rather just not and move Kessler somewhere else for draft comp.

You know me…I strongly believe it’s depth and vets that win RS games and we’d lower our count by trading two for one. Divine intervention is easier when it’s just one guy, and even without any intervention I think you’d expect Ingram to play less minutes than Collins or Kessler based on history. Having as much talent concentrated in the fewest amount of players would be the most effective way to try to operate out of the middle. Much better than being in the middle bc you have 10+ good role players IMO.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Ingram has top 25 potential if you can teach him to play a more modern style where he holds the ball less

I understand the Pelicans have tried to do that, so maybe it's not a likely outcome, but maybe in a contract year he is more willing to change.

 

[MT Steve]

Ok? The point is his entire career he's been a positive defender. Maybe, just maybe, being on the Jazz (who explicitly said coaching defense was not a priority) might have been the biggest contributing factor, not John Collins playing.

He's been a positive defender when he has an elite rim protector playing the 5 while he's playing the 4. My argument is that him playing the 5 is untenable.

Yes, when Walker played the team was dramatically better in defense, because that's the only reason Walker Kessler is in the NBA, to be a defender.

I don't really care about the comparison to Walker, but if you're truly hellbent on including him in this discussion, the team's defensive dropoff from Kessler to Collins was mountains larger than the team's offensive dropoff from Collins to Kessler.

Kessler is a very flawed offensive player - maybe it's too hard to built a great offense with him at the 5. I don't know. What I do know is Collins at the 5 ain't it.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

He's been a positive defender when he has an elite rim protector playing the 5 while he's playing the 4. My argument is that him playing the 5 is untenable.


I don't really care about the comparison to Walker, but if you're truly hellbent on including him in this discussion, the team's defensive dropoff from Kessler to Collins was mountains larger than the team's offensive dropoff from Collins to Kessler.

Kessler is a very flawed offensive player - maybe it's too hard to built a great offense with him at the 5. I don't know. What I do know is Collins at the 5 ain't it.

Clint Capella is not an elite rim protector and he played with other combos outside of Capela

 

[KqWIN]

Mike Conley first year in Utah he rated out as a negative defender among many advanced defensive stats and was barely positive on O. One of his worst advance stats seasons since his rookie contract years. Sometimes guys just take time to adjust to a new team..

With Collins, you can just look at first half versus second half. His on court rating was worse in the first half despite playing with significantly better players….sometimes it takes time to adjust. I used to be a guy to scoff at this, but it does matter.

Also, Hardy was pretty open about not really focusing on defense. We shouldn’t put all the blame on him. So yeah….I don’t think we necessarily “deserve” a ton from Collins, but a team with the right situation could definitely find themselves interested in Collins.

He’s not a superstar player or anything. But yeah, still very useful to teams in the right situation. Pelicans fans are not crazy for thinking he could help them.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Walker Kessler is a better rim protector than Capella has ever been and the D was not good with Collins/Walker.....

Maybe it was Utah... Idk why that's hard to fathom