David Locke - Utah Jazz are NOT tanking

[The Fresh Prince]

I miss Vandolorian, Threesley, and Mountain Mike.


*cries

 

[HermanG]

@HermanG

You’ve admitted that the trade made us worse.

Now, by making us worse is that more likely or less likely to us making the playoffs?

You just skip my arguments and go back to terminology debate?

 

[HermanG]

Geez, when i talked about trading conley earlier this year (i wanted more minutes for sexton) people acted like the team would fall apart without him. Like he was the greatest floor general of all time and no one else on the roster could do what he could do. That conley was the reason Lauri was playing so good and if conley were gone then lauri would fall apart. If we traded conley that would clearly show we were tanking.


Now im reading that trading conley (along with 3 other contributors) wasnt a good enough effort by DA to tank.

Again, we could trade Markennan for Lowry and if Lowry suddenly played great for us and we won some games against some mediocre teams then some people would say it wasnt a tank trade cause we still won games after the trade.

This is all opinionated. You are claiming we are trying to lose despite the fact that:
- Our record is not worse than before
- Our stats are not significantly worse
- Our best players have more minutes and opportunity
- Our distance to the best lottery seeds has grown
- FO said we did the trade regardless of whether we win or lose more (which means they publicly acknowledge it might lead to more losses!!)
- Hardy said we have foot on the pedal
- We didnt trade JC, who has already won us the Pacers game
- We didnt trade KO, who has been solid and playing 30 minutes ever since the DL
- We waived Bolmaro, perfect tank commander, who just wanted minutes

You and the other tankers are accusing the FO for lying. Its not my job to prove they are not. Innocent until proven guilty.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

Not sure where to put this, so I'll just add it to this thread. In the time since the trade deadline we are the 20th best offense and 10th best defense. I believe we were the 4th best offense and 26th best defense before the trade deadline.

 

[The Midnight]

You just skip my arguments and go back to terminology debate?

Don’t wanna answer?

 

[HermanG]

Don’t wanna answer?

Tbf, the question itself makes no sense since the answer is too obvious.

I'm more interested as to why you are trying to distract the discussion and ignore my points. In my experience that is usually a good sign of losing the argument.

 

[The Midnight]

Tbf, the question itself makes no sense since the answer is too obvious.

I'm more interested as to why you are trying to distract the discussion and ignore my points. In my experience that is usually a good sign of losing the argument.

I’m just gonna wait until you answer the question to continue this convo..

 

[The Midnight]

Geez, when i talked about trading conley earlier this year (i wanted more minutes for sexton) people acted like the team would fall apart without him. Like he was the greatest floor general of all time and no one else on the roster could do what he could do. That conley was the reason Lauri was playing so good and if conley were gone then lauri would fall apart. If we traded conley that would clearly show we were tanking.


Now im reading that trading conley (along with 3 other contributors) wasnt a good enough effort by DA to tank.

Again, we could trade Markennan for Lowry and if Lowry suddenly played great for us and we won some games against some mediocre teams then some people would say it wasnt a tank trade cause we still won games after the trade.

Exactly.

 

[HermanG]

I’m just gonna wait until you answer the question to continue this convo..

I already did. I said the answer is the obvious one. Making us worse means we are less likely to make the playoffs and more likely to finish lower in the standings.

 

[The Midnight]

I already did. I said the answer is the obvious one. Making us worse means we are less likely to make the playoffs and more likely to finish lower in the standings.

Ok .. so, DA’s move made a team that looked good to making the playoffs less likely to make the playoffs.

What term would you use for that?

 

[whatthe]

OpporTANKnistic.

 

[fishonjazz]

This is all opinionated. You are claiming we are trying to lose despite the fact that:
- Our record is not worse than before
- Our stats are not significantly worse
- Our best players have more minutes and opportunity
- Our distance to the best lottery seeds has grown
- FO said we did the trade regardless of whether we win or lose more (which means they publicly acknowledge it might lead to more losses!!)
- Hardy said we have foot on the pedal
- We didnt trade JC, who has already won us the Pacers game
- We didnt trade KO, who has been solid and playing 30 minutes ever since the DL
- We waived Bolmaro, perfect tank commander, who just wanted minutes

You and the other tankers are accusing the FO for lying. Its not my job to prove they are not. Innocent until proven guilty.

Like i said, we could trade Markennan for Lowry (or someone else not very good) and if we kept beating mediocre teams then it could easily be said it wasn't a tanking trade. Despite obviously being one. Results dont always reflect the move or the reasoning behind it.
One time I spent hours raking leaves. My intent was to remove the leaves from my yard. Damn wind showed up and blew them all over my yard again. Someone might have driven by my house and thought "this dude wants to have tons of leaves in his yard" cause he saw the result of my raking. Little did he know I wanted all the leaves to be gone from my yard and was making moves to accomplish that goal. The moves I made didn't work though. That happens in life sometimes.

 

[HermanG]

Ok .. so, DA’s move made a team that looked good to making the playoffs less likely to make the playoffs.

What term would you use for that?

See how you took it to terminology? Good that I called it when you first started this deduction chain.

Is that all you see in the move? All that happened was it made us worse... no other benefits or even considerations?

Btw correct term is still not a tanking move. The impact or effort wasnt enough to warrant that label.

 

[HermanG]

Like i said, we could trade Markennan for Lowry (or someone else not very good) and if we kept beating mediocre teams then it could easily be said it wasn't a tanking trade. Despite obviously being one. Results dont always reflect the move or the reasoning behind it.
One time I spent hours raking leaves. My intent was to remove the leaves from my yard. Damn wind showed up and blew them all over my yard again. Someone might have driven by my house and thought "this dude wants to have tons of leaves in his yard" cause he saw the result of my raking. Little did he know I wanted all the leaves to be gone from my yard and was making moves to accomplish that goal. The moves I made didn't work though. That happens in life sometimes.

Yes I agree,. However I listed 3 other decissions. Not trading JC (who might walk for free) or KO and waving Bolmaro.

You are building a narrative of tanking. Those decissions dont fit into that narrative.

 

[HermanG]

Like i said, we could trade Markennan for Lowry (or someone else not very good) and if we kept beating mediocre teams then it could easily be said it wasn't a tanking trade. Despite obviously being one. Results dont always reflect the move or the reasoning behind it.
One time I spent hours raking leaves. My intent was to remove the leaves from my yard. Damn wind showed up and blew them all over my yard again. Someone might have driven by my house and thought "this dude wants to have tons of leaves in his yard" cause he saw the result of my raking. Little did he know I wanted all the leaves to be gone from my yard and was making moves to accomplish that goal. The moves I made didn't work though. That happens in life sometimes.

Btw. I provided a long list of evidence that speak for innocence. You have 1 evidence of guilt... and that is speculative circumstancial evidence that has alternative explanations.

Yet your verdict is guilty?

 

[fishonjazz]

Btw. I provided a long list of evidence that speak for innocence. You have 1 evidence of guilt... and that is speculative circumstancial evidence that has alternative explanations.

Yet your verdict is guilty?

Huh? I simply said that sometimes when one tries to achieve a specific goal or result, it doesn't work out. Guilty, innocent. I dont know what the hell is going on there lol. I will let you be judge and jury on that stuff. I will continue to look at the moves made and judge those moves. I saw a really good team with a really good coach throw it all away for not much of anything. Then that not much of anything turned into something unexpected. Then when the unexpected happened I saw a team get rid of a number of contributing players for garbage. Then the team beat a few mediocre teams and lost to the worst team in the league.

I dont see an innocent or guilty team in all that. I see a management staff that made moves to intentionally be bad/get worse. Didn't work out like they thought it would. Which could be a very good thing. I love that we have a superstar already. I dont think we intended to have one at this point though. I think the wind blew and a superstar happened.

Its been a fun season. An unexpected one, but fun nonetheless. I aint mad. Quite the opposite. Im glad the tank isn't working as that means a quicker rebuild.

Donovan trade. Tank. Rudy trade. Tank. Bogey trade. Tank. conley trade. Tank. Royce trade. Tank. Beverly trade. Iffy. All these trades happened to get worse/be bad imo. Then the wind blew in unexpectedly and the wins piles up unintentionally. Stuff like that happens in life sometimes.

 

[HermanG]

Huh? I simply said that sometimes when one tries to achieve a specific goal or result, it doesn't work out. Guilty, innocent. I dont know what the hell is going on there lol. I will let you be judge and jury on that stuff. I will continue to look at the moves made and judge those moves. I saw a really good team with a really good coach throw it all away for not much of anything. Then that not much of anything turned into something unexpected. Then when the unexpected happened I saw a team get rid of a number of contributing players for garbage. Then the team beat a few mediocre teams and lost to the worst team in the league.

I dont see an innocent or guilty team in all that. I see a management staff that made moves to intentionally be bad/get worse. Didn't work out like they thought it would. Which could be a very good thing. I love that we have a superstar already. I dont think we intended to have one at this point though. I think the wind blew and a superstar happened.

I was talking about the past 5 weeks only. I understand you have carried that narrative for longer, but I just ask you to consider the list (ignore performance) and if you can fit them into that narrative.

There is no other proof from last 5 weeks about FO sabotaging us than that one trade, which can be reasoned in other ways. However there are plenty of easy, legal and even sensible ways they could have sabotaged us further yet they didnt.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

This is all opinionated. You are claiming we are trying to lose despite the fact that:
- Our record is not worse than before

We are 4-4 and our net rating is -16. Its a small sample that is swung by winning an OT game by 1 point. Just wait...

- Our stats are not significantly worse

Not gonna look this up... significant is a subjective term anyway

- Our best players have more minutes and opportunity

We could have always done this... nothing was stopping this at all. Its irrelevant.

- Our distance to the best lottery seeds has grown

This is not true... we are in the 12th spot and were in the 13th spot the night of the trade.

- FO said we did the trade regardless of whether we win or lose more (which means they publicly acknowledge it might lead to more losses!!)

Yes what was Danny supposed to say "we tanking this ****... Bring us Victor!!!!

- Hardy said we have foot on the pedal

Again... what is he supposed to say? This reminds me of when my wife starts talking to the shady salesman at the fair and says "the salesman says the hologram on this bracelet will reduce inflammation and help with flexibility".

- We didnt trade JC, who has already won us the Pacers game

Another key anti-tanker argument I keep brining up much to your consternation... but yet you keep bringing up that we didn't trade everyone. You don't have to trade everyone. We might want these guys beyond a year.

- We didnt trade KO, who has been solid and playing 30 minutes ever since the DL

And again... see above.

- We waived Bolmaro, perfect tank commander, who just wanted minutes

He wanted to go back to Europe and we have JTA, Udoka, Tech.... he has no future in the NBA. We did him a solid.

You and the other tankers are accusing the FO for lying. Its not my job to prove they are not. Innocent until proven guilty.

I judge actions... you can tell me you had nothing to do with the disappearance of your wife... but if the insurance policy changed the week before she disappeared and you have her cell phone and were the person last seen with her and your search history shows a search of "where to hide a dead body".... I'm going to go ahead and issue a verdict.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I was talking about the past 5 weeks only. I understand you have carried that narrative for longer, but I just ask you to consider the list (ignore performance) and if you can fit them into that narrative.

There is no other proof from last 5 weeks about FO sabotaging us than that one trade, which can be reasoned in other ways. However there are plenty of easy, legal and even sensible ways they could have sabotaged us further yet they didnt.

Yup unless the FO trades EVERYONE and the medical staff declares EVERYONE ineligible for a hangnail and the equipment managers accidentally forget sneakers and the guys have to play in socks... then its obvious... no tank.

 

[The Midnight]

See how you took it to terminology? Good that I called it when you first started this deduction chain.

Is that all you see in the move? All that happened was it made us worse... no other benefits or even considerations?

Btw correct term is still not a tanking move. The impact or effort wasnt enough to warrant that label.

Again you haven't answered the question.. so I'll wait..