Devin Harris on Al Jefferson: Jazz fans will be surprised if they see him

[Zerol]

And yet he almost scored as much on WAY better efficiency than the longer Al Jefferson. What was his excuse?

I know you would say that it is a small sample size, but Jefferson's post all-star numbers were way better than Millsap's.

One good example about Millsap not being able to score against taller opponents was the late season home game against the Hornets, in which David West got injured and Okafor made that miracle shot. Millsap was great against West who is a bit undersized himself. Then he was out with that nasty injury and Adam Gray had to fill in for him with Okafor playing PF. Millsap, with 32 points in regulation mostly against West, was limited to only 1 point in OT. If you watched that game, you know what I am talking about.

 

[sepanol]

I think he was referring to the fact that Millsap would struggle specifically against certain opponents last season, like LaMarcus Aldridge, Pau Gasol, and other taller Power Forwards. Personally Id be very intrigued to see this data, and I'm not sure if you could compile it, GVC. The reason this would be relevant is because in the playoffs, we are likely to match up against very tall, strong PFs and if our starting 4 has trouble against them, then were in heaps of trouble. Ill see if I can find any data of note that could contribute to this point.

I never said Millsap is the better player out of two, but if Big Al is getting paid as double as sap, then he has to do some damn thing more which he isnt even as efficient as sap.

 

[sepanol]

I know you would say that it is a small sample size, but Jefferson's post all-star numbers were way better than Millsap's.

One good example about Millsap not being able to score against taller opponents was the late season home game against the Hornets, in which David West got injured and Okafor made that miracle shot. Millsap was great against West who is a bit undersized himself. Then he was out with that nasty injury and Adam Gray had to fill in for him with Okafor playing PF. Millsap, with 32 points in regulation mostly against West, was limited to only 1 point in OT. If you watched that game, you know what I am talking about.

your whole argument is based on a 5 min long overtime play? thats interesting
Millsap always manages to finish well in tough positions, out of balance, if he attempts as much as Big Al i believe he would score as much as him. It is true that he is undersized but come on, if he had Big Al's body, he would already be like another Shaq

 

[GVC]

I know you would say that it is a small sample size, but Jefferson's post all-star numbers were way better than Millsap's.

One good example about Millsap not being able to score against taller opponents was the late season home game against the Hornets, in which David West got injured and Okafor made that miracle shot. Millsap was great against West who is a bit undersized himself. Then he was out with that nasty injury and Adam Gray had to fill in for him with Okafor playing PF. Millsap, with 32 points in regulation mostly against West, was limited to only 1 point in OT. If you watched that game, you know what I am talking about.

His late season run doesn't nullify his early season performance. Consider, also, how meaningful those late games were (relative to the early games). And, as the previous poster said, if you're whole argument is based on a 5 minute stretch in a 53 minute game in which the player in question scored 33 points, it's a pretty weak argument.

 

[Brown Notes]

Would it be better if we made it to playoffs and get our *** beaten in the first round instead of getting Burks last year?

Of course you don't see how what you said is dumb. Let's look at that statement again.

"i honestly think it is better for us to get as bad position as possible this year, so we can get another good draft pick next year while there are a bunch of good players"

Oh, boy. There are a lot of implications in this statement and you are completely ignoring several realities of the NBA.

#1. The team is already developing Hayward, Burks, Kanter, and Favors. That is a lot of youth. At some point all that potential just becomes an anchor holding the team back as there aren't enough vet starters to help the kids learn how to compete as a team. Without this vet presence the team develops a losing culture and before you know it all those young guys' rookie contracts are up and they GTFO as fast as possible. Whoops now we are a farm team perpetually looking forward to the draft. It is never a good idea to have a 6-7 player rotation of almost everybody being rookies to 3 year players.

#2. Tyrone Corbin. Maybe you missed it but the Jazz have a new head coach. The hardest part of this job is establishing a culture and convincing all these millionaire players to buy in. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see that losing a ton of games in his first full year would make it even more difficult to establish authority, and ultimately would cost TC the job. So yet again in 1-2 years we will be looking at trading away players we have developed but can't keep and looking for a coach to clean up the mess. It is really important to give Corbin the tools he needs to succeed or the Jazz will never know if he can coach the team into a contender.

#3. Tanking the season would have no effect whasoever on the Golden State pick. If the team does well Utah almost certainly will still have a lottery pick. Also purposely putting the team in position to lose a ton of games will kill the fan interest, particularly after a lockout. It's utterly unfair to everybody to lose games on purpose.

I suppose none of this really matters since your comment reeks of obfuscation anyways. All you really care about is getting Jefferson out of the way so Kanter doesn't have to earn a starting spot. You know this would hurt the team's ability to compete so here comes the losing = good thing reasoning.

Go to your room.

 

[billyshelby]

His late season run doesn't nullify his early season performance. Consider, also, how meaningful those late games were (relative to the early games). And, as the previous poster said, if you're whole argument is based on a 5 minute stretch in a 53 minute game in which the player in question scored 33 points, it's a pretty weak argument.

January and February games are meaningful. Al's dominant stretch was January and February. The Jazz were still in contention for a playoff spot. So was 3/4 of the league, and the top teams are all fighting for position. And Al was at his best against the elite teams.

 

[sepanol]

Of course you don't see how what you said is dumb. Let's look at that statement again.

"i honestly think it is better for us to get as bad position as possible this year, so we can get another good draft pick next year while there are a bunch of good players"

Oh, boy. There are a lot of implications in this statement and you are completely ignoring several realities of the NBA.

#1. The team is already developing Hayward, Burks, Kanter, and Favors. That is a lot of youth. At some point all that potential just becomes an anchor holding the team back as there aren't enough vet starters to help the kids learn how to compete as a team. Without this vet presence the team develops a losing culture and before you know it all those young guys' rookie contracts are up and they GTFO as fast as possible. Whoops now we are a farm team perpetually looking forward to the draft. It is never a good idea to have a 6-7 player rotation of almost everybody being rookies to 3 year players.

#2. Tyrone Corbin. Maybe you missed it but the Jazz have a new head coach. The hardest part of this job is establishing a culture and convincing all these millionaire players to buy in. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to see that losing a ton of games in his first full year would make it even more difficult to establish authority, and ultimately would cost TC the job. So yet again in 1-2 years we will be looking at trading away players we have developed but can't keep and looking for a coach to clean up the mess. It is really important to give Corbin the tools he needs to succeed or the Jazz will never know if he can coach the team into a contender.

#3. Tanking the season would have no effect whasoever on the Golden State pick. If the team does well Utah almost certainly will still have a lottery pick. Also purposely putting the team in position to lose a ton of games will kill the fan interest, particularly after a lockout. It's utterly unfair to everybody to lose games on purpose.

I suppose none of this really matters since your comment reeks of obfuscation anyways. All you really care about is getting Jefferson out of the way so Kanter doesn't have to earn a starting spot. You know this would hurt the team's ability to compete so here comes the losing = good thing reasoning.

Go to your room.

A few questions,

Is freaking harris and jefferson our vets to lead the team here ? Hayward would be a much better leader even right now than the sum of those two.

No one will complain about Ty Corbin if we dont make it to playoffs with bunch of young players.

GSW pick isnt guaranteed to be on this year, its top 8 protected. So the better pick we get the better assets we have(We can use two lottery picks in a good trade and get a better veteran as well). Otherwise, why Oklahoma didnt say, well we got Durant and Westbrook, lets get some vets and make it to playoffs, they just waited the right players, the right time and they got Harden the next year as a very good complemantary piece.

Are you mixing Harris and Jefferson with Duncan and Nash or what? So they are gonna stay and lead our team? To what? Getting our *** kicked in the first round ? or not even making to playoffs?

You should come with stronger arguments instead of sticking your mind up to Kanter vs Jefferson discussion and trying to convince me with your shallow ideas.

Btw Kanter is 3rd pick, not 33rd. So he has to start (in normal conditions like except being loaded with bunch of big guys) and if he doesnt perform well, he has to fight to earn his spot back. He already MUST have with lots of credit in that sense. But guys like you will probably start bitching about him from the first min, ohhh he got rejected, he sucks, he is not athletic at all, Jefferson is better, he scored 35 points avg in the sunday games we played last year.... blablabla

 

[GVC]

January and February games are meaningful. Al's dominant stretch was January and February. The Jazz were still in contention for a playoff spot. So was 3/4 of the league, and the top teams are all fighting for position. And Al was at his best against the elite teams.

November and December games are just as meaningful, and Jefferson played poorly in January as well. From a quick look at his splits, it doesn't look like he did any better against Western Conference playoff teams than his season averages.

Keep in mind, I was responding to a comment about Millsap's efficiency, and a very strange example used to try to make a point. And, contrary to the commonly held belief that Millsap's production declined as the season went on, Paul's best two full month stretch (statistically) last season was February and March.

 

[GVC]

I know you would say that it is a small sample size, but Jefferson's post all-star numbers were way better than Millsap's.

Millsap was still a lot more efficient scoring the basketball, and still averaged better than 17 points per post-all-star game. But ya, Jefferson's rebounding was a lot better, and his scoring efficiency was at least in the acceptable range.

Millsap's length is way overplayed on this site.

 

[billyshelby]

November and December games are just as meaningful, and Jefferson played poorly in January as well. From a quick look at his splits, it doesn't look like he did any better against Western Conference playoff teams than his season averages.

Keep in mind, I was responding to a comment about Millsap's efficiency, and a very strange example used to try to make a point. And, despite the commonly held belief that Millsap's production declined as the season went on, Paul's best two full month stretch (statistically) last season were February and March.

My mistake, Jefferson was dominant in February and March. Games that are just as important, if not more important, than games in the early season.

And you're not being honest about his performance against playoff teams (even "Western" teams which is a dodge). He killed in that stretch against the league elite.

 

[GVC]

Games that are just as important, if not more important, than games in the early season.

Last I checked, a win in November is worth the same as a win in March.

 

[billyshelby]

Last I checked, a win in November is worth the same as a win in March.

Last I checked, you were questioning how "meaningful" those "late season games" in February and March were when the team was fighting for a playoff spot.

 

[GVC]

By the time March rolled around, no one expected the Jazz to make the playoffs, but perhaps I stated things too strongly.

Having crunched the numbers for stats against the top 4 Western Conference teams (since I know you only make baseless assertions), he scored at league average efficiency against the top 4 Western Conference teams last season, roughly in line with his post-all-star game numbers.

 

[billyshelby]

By the time March rolled around, no one expected the Jazz to make the playoffs, but perhaps I stated things too strongly.

Having crunched the numbers for stats against the top 4 Western Conference teams (since I know you only make baseless assertions), he scored at league average efficiency against the top 4 Western Conference teams last season, roughly in line with his post-all-star game numbers.

I guess that's the difference when you watch games. The Jazz were actually in the hunt into late March before the meltdown.

Love the way you've steered the argument to "The Top Four Western Conference" playoff teams to try and bolster your point. Like that means anything. Aren't you supposed to be the champion of intellectual honesty?

 

[GVC]

I guess that's the difference when you watch games. The Jazz were actually in the hunt into late March before the meltdown.

Love the way you've steered the argument to "The Top Four Western Conference" playoff teams to try and bolster your point. Like that means anything. Aren't you supposed to be the champion of intellectual honesty?

If you're going to make the claims, you define the terms and crunch the numbers. I know you won't because you never have, and I have better things to do. What the **** does "elite" team mean? I just started at the top of the Western Conference and moved down. I didn't make the choice strategically.

Also, I knew you'd make that dig, instead of resorting to actual evidence. Style over substance rules the day for billy, and even when that fails, he can go to work discrediting anyone who disagrees with him. Shameful.

I only entered this thread because of Zerol's stupid post, followed by his stupid follow up. I wasn't bashing Jefferson, only pointing out how flawed his statements were (re: Millsap's performance v. Jefferson's performance). Like everyone, I want the Jazz to win, and if Jefferson is the best player to help them do that, I'm on board. We'll see.

 

[billyshelby]

If you're going to make the claims, you define the terms and crunch the numbers. I know you won;t because you never have, and I have better things to do. What the **** does "elite" team mean? I just started at the top of the Western Conference and moved down. I didn't make the choice strategically.

Do you really want to debate how good or not good Al was during February and March? I'm all ears if you want to explain a guy who averaged 24 and 11 for 2 months only got his numbers against crappy competition in games that didn't matter. That seems to be your point. And it's not very intellectually honest.

 

[GVC]

I'm all ears if you want to explain a guy who averaged 24 and 11 for 2 months only got his numbers against crappy competition in games that didn't matter. That seems to be your point. And it's not very intellectually honest.

I've never said anything remotely like that. If you think that's my point, there's no point discussing anything with you, as you obviously have a serious reading comprehension problem.

Just because I challenge someone else's point, doesn't mean I'm asserting that the exact opposite is true. You seem too daft to pick up on these nuances. Instead of throwing **** around when someone challenges you, why not try to back up your claims? Intellectual honesty...

 

[billyshelby]

I've never said anything remotely like that. If you think that's my point, there's no point discussing anything with you, as you obviously have a serious reading comprehension problem.

You said: The games Al played well in weren't as meaningful as the early games when he played poorly. You've disregarded the phenomenal stretch of games he had in February and March on the grounds he was "Something" against the "Top Four Western Conference Teams." You're asking ME to back up my claims that 24 and 11, with dominant efforts against teams like Chicago, Boston, OKC, and Dallas (just to name a few) to back my claims up.

Do you really not get how idiotic you sound? Is it so hard for you to admit that Al was dominant for two months, but you don't believe he can do that for a whole season? We could argue about that (and we have.) But I can't figure out how to argue with someone who claims Al's performance in February and March wasn't fantastic. I saw it with my own eyes. He was a force. You dream about having players who can do what he did during that stretch.

 

[GVC]

You said: The games Al played well in weren't as meaningful as the early games when he played poorly. You've disregarded the phenomenal stretch of games he had in February and March on the grounds he was "Something" against the "Top Four Western Conference Teams." You're asking ME to back up my claims that 24 and 11, with dominant efforts against teams like Chicago, Boston, OKC, and Dallas (just to name a few) to back my claims up.

Do you really not get how idiotic you sound? Is it so hard for you to admit that Al was dominant for two months, but you don't believe he can do that for a whole season? We could argue about that (and we have.) But I can't figure out how to argue with someone who claims Al's performance in February and March wasn't fantastic. I saw it with my own eyes. He was a force. You dream about having players who can do what he did during that stretch.

I never made any claim about Jefferson's absolute performance. Go ahead and read my posts in this thread. The only reason I brought up the top 4 Western Conference teams was because you and Zerol mentioned his performance against "elite" teams. I wasn't going out of my way to discredit Al's performance in the least. I was just pointing out that he wasn't so amazingly better than Millsap, as Zerol was claiming.

Read my posts in this thread again. You're reading stuff that just isn't there. Consider the possibility that you're the idiot.

And, again, league average true shooting post-All-Star break is not "dominant". For a volume shooter who doesn't turn the ball over on a team with **** on the perimeter, it's pretty good, but not dominant.

 

[billyshelby]

I never made any claim about Jefferson's absolute performance. Go ahead and read my posts in this thread. The only reason I brought up the top 4 Western Conference teams was because you and Zerol mentioned his performance against "elite" teams. I wasn't going out of my way to discredit Al's performance in the lease, just point out that he wasn't so amazingly better than Millsap as Zerol was claiming.

Read my posts in this thread again. You're reading stuff that just isn't there. Consider the possibility that you're the idiot.

I don't have to. You said Al's games might not have been meaningful since they happened in the "late season." I'm guessing anyone can look up Al's performance against great teams during that 2 month stretch and see that he was dominant. I'm also guessing everyone can read your ludicrous posts in this thread as well as I can. If you think your own posts are going to defend you, you need intellectually honest therapy.