Devin Harris on Al Jefferson: Jazz fans will be surprised if they see him

[sepanol]

The thing i don't understand, is why no one is rooting for al and paul to learn how to play together effectively... if they could just figure it out, we have hands down a top 5 front court.

Maybe instead of deciding whos better, lets embrace the fact that we have 2 studs up front, with 2 potential studs on the bench fighting for their moment.

But when Big Al and Sap plays together, they are kinda stopping each other both in defense and offense. We have seen that last year. Only player Big Al can play comfortably with here is Favors. Because with other players we have certain weaknesses. But i believe Millsap can play with anyone except Big Al here, Memo, Kanter, Favors(maybe the offense will be a little raw) but millsap and Big Al certainly doesn't complement each other.

 

[billyshelby]

March games for me, are generally not that decisive. You already play almost 70 games the whole year and you can't make much difference with grabbing a few more wins. GVC is trying to say that if Big Al (and Jazz) performed better earlier we wouldn't have been in that critical situation already. So we wouldn't have need to grab a few more wins to enter the playoffs. And if you aren't good enough most of the season, you can't make miracles just in one month and achieve great things in playoffs.

Memphis was one of the best teams in post allstar period that's why they deserved it , and they beat SA. But if we could grab a few more wins in march and make it to playoffs, we would probably get our *** kicked by SA. So you can't prove Big Al had a good year because he made good numbers in relatively not important games. In the month of march, we were already discussing here, is it better whether we go to playoffs or get a better draft pick? Even fans lost their hope for the rest of the season means, players are aware whats going on and they aren't stupid to hope they are gonna get into playoffs after they lost their best player and there are 2 teams performing much better than them ahead. (Houston and Memphis)

Here i send a link to Big Als game log stats, you will see that he sucked in march except the SA game. Let me tell you the only games he put a above average performance and that we won in after deron williams trade. (and it is normal he averaged more than before because he turned out to be the first option on offense)

https://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/2389/al-jefferson


January, indiana 30 points 9 rebs
February
sacramento 27 points 7 rebs
toronto 34 points 8 rebs
philadelphia 30 pts 17 rebs
minnesota 26 pts 11 rebs

march
lakers 11 pts 11 rebs
new orleans 8 pts 6 rebs
denver 17 pts 10 rebs

Actually i have posted our only wins in after dwill trade. So as you have seen, the fact that he made some good numbers against the worst teams in the league doesn't convince me that he marginally increased his performance and became such a good player or whatever. If you say he made a big leap in post all star break, i would say that's because he totally sucked before all star. If a player is getting 14 million per year, he is supposed to perform at least like jefferson did in the post all star break but it shouldn't make him special that he performed well. Because there are bunch of guys in the league performing better than him with less salary.

I think Big Al is a good player, but whoever thinks he is our most important player, franchise player, one of the best 10 big men in the league or whatever, i would say, just wake up from your dream because he is not.

You have your months mixed up. The March games you list were in April. Al's February and March was phenomenal by any standard.

 

[sepanol]

You have your months mixed up. The March games you list were in April. Al's February and March was phenomenal by any standard.

sorry you are right about the months, i wrote wrong but anyway his performance didn't help us win. I don't care if he scores 30 points while we lost to knicks, dallas by 30 margin. His February and March performance was phenomenal in numbers, not in the game. And i agree in some games he played really good even though we lost, but that doesn't make his full year successful. If you are satisfied with it, its your choice but i am not. He should put 24 11 in playoffs, or more critical games, then i will be ok. But I dont believe he can be a franchise player in any above average team in nba.

 

[billyshelby]

sorry you are right about the months, i wrote wrong but anyway his performance didn't help us win. I don't care if he scores 30 points while we lost to knicks, dallas by 30 margin. His February and March performance was phenomenal in numbers, not in the game. And i agree in some games he played really good even though we lost, but that doesn't make his full year successful. If you are satisfied with it, its your choice but i am not. He should put 24 11 in playoffs, or more critical games, then i will be ok. But I dont believe he can be a franchise player in any above average team in nba.

So Al's performances in games we lost don't count?

 

[sepanol]

So Al's performances in games we lost don't count?

You don't get my point, Big Al never proved he is a winner yet, he never proved he is a good playoff player (like Randolph did this year), so it seems funny to me to praise him so much. He is just an above average PF who can't use his skills as good as he is supposed to , and i dont think it will change in future. You guys maybe relying on him so much, but i don't think he is the guy to be a cornerstone for our franchise.

 

[Fishsticks]

Kanter has never played in the NBA, yet you speak of him like he is the next comming of Karl Malone. Al played very well down the stretch and while they did not win many games, it's foolish to believe that was is fault. Al needs another year in the system without dwill ripping out his confidence. If he can't pull it together then we can speak aboit moving him.

 

[Deleted member 848]

What if the Jazz had 8 more wins before their 8 game losing streak? 5 more wins? I don't know how anyone would need this repeated so many times to understand.

What do you want me to address in your first post? I don't recall saying anything that contradicts it in this thread.

I feel like you're intentionally missing my point, just for the sake of you giving yourself a false-perception of winning this argument. Its funny how you argue in a much more childish manner than the youngest poster on this board. Congrats.

 

[GVC]

I feel like you're intentionally missing my point, just for the sake of you giving yourself a false-perception of winning this argument. Its funny how you argue in a much more childish manner than the youngest poster on this board. Congrats.

What is your point?

Referring to a post where I said a win in November is worth the same as a win in March (which you mistakenly thought I admitted was false), you said:

Lol. Its a good thing you admitted this was a foolish thing to say afterwards.

After which, I restated that very conclusion: A win in November is worth the same as a win in March.

You then went on to assert again that I had admitted to overstating that point. I, AGAIN, told that that wasn't what I overstated.

You then made some statements about games in March not being the same as games in November. I never claimed they were, so I didn't understand how that point was at all relevant. You continued, stating that had the Jazz won some of the tight games in March, their season would have been different. Well, duh, of course. It would have been just as different had they won more games earlier in the season, which I pointed out in my reply.

What is your point? It seems like you're just throwing whatever **** out there to win an argument (including some ridiculous claims about my lack of intellectual honesty). Whatever. I challenged what you said with what I consider to be a true statement, and in response you've insulted me. How does that make me more childish than you?

 

[Deleted member 848]

You then made some statements about games in March not being the same as games in November. I never claimed they were, so I didn't understand how that point was at all relevant.

Hahahahahaha. Lets Re-quote some of your posts in case you have forgotten.

His late season run doesn't nullify his early season performance. Consider, also, how meaningful those late games were (relative to the early games)

November and December games are just as meaningful

(this was in response to billyshelby talking about the IMPORTANCE of March games, not worth)

What is your point?

Referring to a post where I said a win in November is worth the same as a win in March (which you mistakenly thought I admitted was false), you said:


After which, I restated that very conclusion: A win in November is worth the same as a win in March.


You then went on to assert again that I had admitted to overstating that point. I, AGAIN, told that that wasn't what I overstated.

Basically what Im witnessing here is that you have changed your point over the course of the argument, from wins in March being meaningless, to wins in March being "just as important as ones in November" and now you are arguing they are different, but claim that your point all along has been addressing the "worth" of these wins, a point you made later on into the argument AFTER stating the first 2-3 points.

Initially my point was addressing the first original points that you made this argument, talking about the relative unimportance (and then subsequently, equal importance) of games in November and March. After you began changing the argument in attempts to make me look idiotic, I figured I will just call you out and it, and also call you out on the irony of providing extremely-skewed data to support your argument, when a couple of weeks ago you gave me serious amounts of hell for doing the same. Thats the immaturity I am seeing in your posts.

 

[GVC]

My overstatement, which I admitted to, was that the games in March were meaningless because, with the passage of time, I had forgotten, at least in part, how late the Jazz were still in the race for a playoff spot (especially since, given the tail spin, most people were of the opinion, myself included, that the Jazz weren't going to make the playoffs). Had I remembered correctly, I wouldn't have made that statement, which is why I retracted it. I don't know why I should have to defend something I already admitted was an overstatement.

When you entered the thread, as I've already quoted, you were laughing about how it would be idiotic for anyone to claim that a win in November is worth the same as a win in March. That is what you quoted from me, and I assumed that's what you were addressing (you know, since that's what you quoted). You were never addressing a point I made about the relative importance of games because since admitting my mistake, I never made any claims about that. It's all right here in this thread, and you should be able to go back and read it. You'll see I've been consistent since admitting my overstatement.

As for skewed statistics, what exactly is the problem? Zerol and billy made completely unsubstantiated claims about Al's performance against a vague set of "elite" teams. I, being completely honest about my methodology, presented his stats against the top 4 Western Conference teams. I even stated that I'd have to know what they meant by "elite" to be able to check these claims, but they didn't come forward with definitions or data. The data I presented was accurate.

The issue I had with your data is that you chose to round your numbers in such a way (contrary to standard practice) to make your argument more credible. You did so without stating that that's what you were doing.

What I did was honest and accurate. If someone didn't like how I defined "elite" teams OR how much time I was willing to put into gathering data, they could re-define the term less ambiguously and collect the data themselves. What you did was dishonest and inaccurate. Period.

 

[Deleted member 848]

My overstatement, which I admitted to, was that the games in March were meaningless because, with the passage of time, I had forgotten, at least in part, how late the Jazz were still in the race for a playoff spot (especially since, given the tail spin, most people were of the opinion, myself included, that the Jazz weren't going to make the playoffs). Had I remembered correctly, I wouldn't have made that statement, which is why I retracted it. I don't know why I should have to defend something I already admitted was an overstatement.

When you entered the thread, as I've already quoted, you were laughing about how it would be idiotic for anyone to claim that a win in November is worth the same as a win in March. That is what you quoted from me, and I assumed that's what you were addressing (you know, since that's what you quoted). You were never addressing a point I made about the relative importance of games because since admitting my mistake, I never made any claims about that. It's all right here in this thread, and you should be able to go back and read it. You'll see I've been consistent since admitting my overstatement.

As for skewed statistics, what exactly is the problem? Zerol and billy made completely unsubstantiated claims about Al's performance against a vague set of "elite" teams. I, being completely honest about my methodology, presented his stats against the top 4 Western Conference teams. I even stated that I'd have to know what they meant by "elite" to be able to check these claims, but they didn't come forward with definitions or data. The data I presented was accurate.

The issue I had with your data is that you chose to round your numbers in such a way (contrary to standard practice) to make your argument more credible. You did so without stating that that's what you were doing.

What I did was honest and accurate. If someone didn't like how I defined "elite" teams OR how much time I was willing to put into gathering data, they could re-define the term less ambiguously and collect the data themselves. What you did was dishonest and inaccurate. Period.

So youre allowed to skew data, because there is no "convention" of how it should be represented, somehow making it honest? Whereas I round to 17 from 17.6, and therefore I am a dishonest and an inaccurate poster? Gotcha. Its funny how you poked fun at a poster for choosing a 5min OT period as an example of choosing an absurdly small sample size, and then you define "elite" by only taking his performances against the top 4 Western teams, which only seemed TOO coincidental seeing as his games against the Eastern elite teams worked against your example. To me this is an example of a dishonest comparison; now, you claim that you stated this for all of us to see (and I applaud you for the accuracy) I suppose, but in the end of the day you choosing an example like that just points at you being partially dishonest, or partially brain-dead. Not sure which one it is, in this instance.

And for the record, I at least had the decency to admit the data I used to support my argument (my rounding error) could have lead to inaccuracy, and then subsequently apologized. You seem to be valiantly clinging onto your comparison as accurate, simply because there was no convention of what elite is, which means you could skew data as much as possible. To me, that seems foolish and/or dishonest.

 

[GVC]

Its funny how you poked fun at a poster for choosing a 5min OT period as an example of choosing an absurdly small sample size, and then you define "elite" by only taking his performances against the top 4 Western teams, which only seemed TOO coincidental seeing as his games against the Eastern elite teams worked against your example. To me this is an example of a dishonest comparison; now, you claim that you stated this for all of us to see (and I applaud you for the accuracy) I suppose, but in the end of the day you choosing an example like that just points at you being partially dishonest, or partially brain-dead. Not sure which one it is, in this instance.

And for the record, I at least had the decency to admit the data I used to support my argument (my rounding error) could have lead to inaccuracy, and then subsequently apologized. You seem to be valiantly clinging onto your comparison as accurate, simply because there was no convention of what elite is, which means you could skew data as much as possible. To me, that seems foolish and/or dishonest.

I assure you, it was a coincidence. I haven't looked at the data again, and no one has presented any, so I don't even know if what you're saying about Al's performance against the top Eastern Conference teams is true. If someone is going to make a claim, they should back it up. I did some leg work. I never claimed it was perfect, but I certainly never claimed it was anything more than what it is. I didn't skew any data. All the data I posted is accurate. If you have a problem with the data, post better data (as I did in your thread). What should I be apologizing for?

Even if there were something to retract or apologize for (there isn't), I certainly wouldn't be apologizing to you. Since entering this thread, you've called me foolish, childish, dishonest and brain-dead. Further, like billy, you've consistently misrepresented what I've posted in this thread. You've acted like a little bitch. I await your apology.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Kanter has never played in the NBA, yet you speak of him like he is the next comming of Karl Malone. Al played very well down the stretch and while they did not win many games, it's foolish to believe that was is fault. Al needs another year in the system without dwill ripping out his confidence. If he can't pull it together then we can speak aboit moving him.

While kudos are in order for AJ (perhaps with the help of the coaches) improving offensively and possibly in man-on defense, his help defense still leaves much to be desired.

Also, Big Al is arguably a "cornerstone" player, and I don't see leadership out of him that might have been observed in--say--Karl Malone (to throw in a high standard from yesteryear), especially on defense.

BTW, was there evidence that DWill was "ripping out his confidence", and did his confidence magically improve after DW left? ? IMHO, Al got more opportunities (especially minutes) than he deserved.

 

[Deleted member 848]

I assure you, it was a coincidence. I haven't looked at the data again, and no one has presented any, so I don't even know if what you're saying about Al's performance against the top Eastern Conference teams is true. If someone is going to make a claim, they should back it up. I did some leg work. I never claimed it was perfect, but I certainly never claimed it was anything more than what it is. I didn't skew any data. All the data I posted is accurate. If you have a problem with the data, post better data (as I did in your thread). What should I be apologizing for?

Coincidence? Alright I guess I can believe you, though it is extremely convenient. Examples? Alright: from February 28th to the end of March, Al Jefferson played Eastern Conference teams 6 times. In these 6 games he scored: 28 points against the Boston Celtics on February 28th (undoubtedly elite); 36 against the Knicks (not an elite "team", though they certainly have elite talent and they were a playoff team; 34 against the Raports, who are certainly not elite;33 on Chicago, aka the best regular season team of the NBA last season; 30 against the 76ers, who similarily to the Knicks are a talented playoff team, though they wouldnt be classified as elite; and at the very end of the month (march 28th), when Utah was virtually out of the playoff picture after suffering a 5 game losing streak (later to become 8th, as we know) Al Jefferson only scored 15 against the Washington Wizards, who are certainly the opposite of elite at that point in time.

Due to the small amount of games played against the Eastern Conference during March, it is difficult to really support opinions with facts obtained from this small of a sample size. What is quite significant, is the fact that he played 2 elite ECF teams (both top 4) and averaged 30.5 against them (if my mental math is correct). Against 1st/2nd round exits, Al averaged 33 ppg. Notice how the omission game log info from your initial definition of elite really supported your point, but if you included the other half of the equation it would have done the exact opposite? This is why I claimed that your chosen factual evidence was quite dishonest, or just simply not well chosen at all. I hope you can understand where Im coming from here, im trying to be as clear as possible. His pctg against the 4 playoff teams was .530. Throw in Toronto and Washington, and then you have .549. PS, what were the percentages you got for your comparison, and which games did you choose? After looking at the Game log, only elite teams Al played in March are the Mavs and OKC, who he cuumalitvely averaged .604 against. I think thats above league average, AND above his allstar game pctgs. If you throw in February into the mix, he played dallas and okc again, and he averaged a FG of .685 between those two games (he scored 21 and 30 points in these two games, so its not like he was 2/3 or something). Curious to hear which data you used.

Even if there were something to retract or apologize for (there isn't), I certainly wouldn't be apologizing to you. Since entering this thread, you've called me foolish, childish, dishonest and brain-dead. Further, like billy, you've consistently misrepresented what I've posted in this thread. You've acted like a little bitch. I await your apology.

a) I initially said your POST was a foolish thing to say. Then you responded by saying that maybe I am the one who is foolish. I simply critized your point. You criticized me as a person before I ever insulted you. Nice try though, I applaud you for the effort
b) Misrepresented what youve posted? I could easily say the same about you. PS: usually changing your arguments and then claiming that you "overstated" them is very bitch-rememiscient. Take a look in the mirror.
c) So you wont apologize for something just because I rebuttled your personal attack on me? Cool. For the record, if you prove to me that there is something that I should be apologizing for, then I will. I did apologize earlier for misinterpreting the quote, and other than that I cannot think of anything else. Im not gonna hold some childish-grudge and not admit I'm wrong just for the sake to win an argument.
d) You say that I dont deserve an apology because I have thrown insults your way, and then you refer to me as a much MORE derogatory term and then tell me youre awaiting an apology? Oh the irony

 

[GVC]

Due to the small amount of games played against the Eastern Conference during March, it is difficult to really support opinions with facts obtained from this small of a sample size. What is quite significant, is the fact that he played 2 elite ECF teams (both top 4) and averaged 30.5 against them (if my mental math is correct)

I hope you realize that in the 4 games Al played against the Bulls and Celtics during last season (the two teams you selected), he shot under 50% combined, with a TS% of .524, which is well below the league average. This doesn't help those arguing that Al was efficient scoring the ball against elite teams.

Oh the irony

I'm shocked you were able to pick up on that.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Idk what thread is more pointless, this one or the Marijuana thread in GD.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Idk what thread is more pointless, this one or the Marijuana thread in GD.

What? They are both truly riveting.

 

[Deleted member 848]

PS I calculated the FG% of all of Als games against the most elite of teams he played against in the months of February and March from both conferences (these were the Bulls, OKC, the Mavs, and the Celtics)

I got 60.7%. Notice how this detriments your point completely.

 

[GVC]

It's bad enough that people want to focus on a 28 game stretch. Looking at only 7 games (all losses) is completely ridiculous. But ya, Al put up some good numbers against good teams in February and March.

 

[Deleted member 848]

It's bad enough that people want to focus on a 28 game stretch. Looking at only 7 games (all losses) is completely ridiculous. But ya, Al put up some good numbers against good teams in February and March.

Seeing as you basically said the polar opposite of this a few pages ago, its nice to see that you've finally come around to the other side.