Does anyone still like this team?

[LoPo]

Pretty much this. We become Wizards west with the main goal of "win enough and do things to keep Donovan".

If we don't make the second round I think Mike is gone for sure... if the offers are good enough for Rudy then I think he's out too.

On the godfather offer... I agree as well... It would need to be like the Knicks jumping into the top 4 of the draft and then deciding they can't wait any longer... they send their top 4 pick, a couple unprotected future picks, pick swaps, one young guard, and likely Randle for salary match but might be able to sub Fournier/AB or Noel or some ****.

The difference between the Beal Wizards and Mitchell Jazz would be that we would trade the other big player before that player becomes a massive contract liability. John Wall got hurt then his $40+ million contract sapped that Wizards team of all potential. By trading Rudy for value that helps right now, we avoid being the Wizards.

Sure it will sting to lose Rudy because so much of what we do has him in mind, but we can build a very bright future if we make the right trade with Rudy. Some people around here act like the world will fall apart if we trade Rudy. They need to be realistic and stop being dramatic. Rudy will not be the same player the last few massive years of his contract that he is right now. Mitchell has 5+ years of good basketball ahead of him.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The difference between the Beal Wizards and Mitchell Jazz would be that we would trade the other big player before that player becomes a massive contract liability. John Wall got hurt then his $40+ million contract sapped that Wizards team of all potential. By trading Rudy for value that helps right now, we avoid being the Wizards.

Sure it will sting to lose Rudy because so much of what we do has him in mind, but we can build a very bright future if we make the right trade with Rudy. Some people around here act like the world will fall apart if we trade Rudy. They need to be realistic and stop being dramatic. Rudy will not be the same player the last few massive years of his contract that he is right now. Mitchell has 5+ years of good basketball ahead of him.

Its not a perfect comp for sure... just saying the Wiz primary motivation seems to be keep Beal. Similar to Porty... its not the best way to run things.

If we move Rudy we need to get a mix of solid young vets and some draft equity... because we need some lotto tickets. We will need to hit big on either the trade or the picks or we quickly lose ground in the West. While Donovan has 5,7+ great years of basketball ahead of him I believe only a couple of those years will be here.

The degree of difficulty is very high. If they turned and went full scorched earth (they won't do it) they could build something pretty quickly. It could absolutely backfire and end in 4-5 years of misery.

 

[LoPo]

Its not a perfect comp for sure... just saying the Wiz primary motivation seems to be keep Beal. Similar to Porty... its not the best way to run things.

If we move Rudy we need to get a mix of solid young vets and some draft equity... because we need some lotto tickets. We will need to hit big on either the trade or the picks or we quickly lose ground in the West. While Donovan has 5,7+ great years of basketball ahead of him I believe only a couple of those years will be here.

The degree of difficulty is very high. If they turned and went full scorched earth (they won't do it) they could build something pretty quickly. It could absolutely backfire and end in 4-5 years of misery.

It's definitely not easy. There's no way we trade Rudy straight up for another all star. Just doesn't work that way especially at his age, position and contract. And trading Mitchell only makes sense if he won't commit to at least the next few years. If he wants to be here at least the next few years, we have to try to build around him.

If we all assume a great team has 8 good players, we would have to assume that Rudy brings back 3 guys who are worthy of a good team's 8 man rotation.

Can we get that out of Atlanta with Collins, Capella and Huerter? Atlanta seems to be the most logical trade partner since they have aspirations and a need for a Rudy to play with Trae.

 

[MT Steve]

It's definitely not easy. There's no way we trade Rudy straight up for another all star. Just doesn't work that way especially at his age, position and contract. And trading Mitchell only makes sense if he won't commit to at least the next few years. If he wants to be here at least the next few years, we have to try to build around him.

If we all assume a great team has 8 good players, we would have to assume that Rudy brings back 3 guys who are worthy of a good team's 8 man rotation.

Can we get that out of Atlanta with Collins, Capella and Huerter? Atlanta seems to be the most logical trade partner since they have aspirations and a need for a Rudy to play with Trae.

This is so stupid.

It would be impossible to trade Rudy and not have a dramatic drop-off defensively as a result. We already have the best offense in the NBA - and a ton of it is because of Rudy sucking in defenders and being the best screener in the NBA.

There isn't a universe where we trade Rudy and don't immediately become a lot worse. And if that happens, Don's obviously not going to want to stay either.

 

[One Brow]

I still like this team and enjoy the few games I get to watch them play.

 

[LoPo]

This is so stupid.

It would be impossible to trade Rudy and not have a dramatic drop-off defensively as a result. We already have the best offense in the NBA - and a ton of it is because of Rudy sucking in defenders and being the best screener in the NBA.

There isn't a universe where we trade Rudy and don't immediately become a lot worse. And if that happens, Don's obviously not going to want to stay either.

What we should do is keep Rudy under contract for the rest of his life. We can't play basketball without him....

Yes, things will change and some things will get worse with Rudy gone. Over the last 3 or 4 years, we have been an average of the 3 seed in the west. Even with Donovan putting up record numbers and doing some pretty elite playoff scoring stuff, we couldn't advance past the Nuggets or a depleted Clippers team. Regular season success and our "#1 offense" has not translated to playoff success at all.

If we trade Rudy, let's just say that we drop to a 6 or 7 seed next year as we make changes. I firmly believe that we are better contenders built like a modern day NBA playoff team that has 5 shooters and everybody switchable than we do built around this Rudy system.

 

[One Brow]

If we trade Rudy, let's just say that we drop to a 6 or 7 seed next year as we make changes. I firmly believe that we are better contenders built like a modern day NBA playoff team that has 5 shooters and everybody switchable than we do built around this Rudy system.

Which contenders this year have that construction?

 

[Jingled]

2017 with the “super friends” team was a great time to fall back in love with the Jazz. Such a fun, likable team.

The feuding, whiney, underachieving 2022 Jazz brings, unfortunately, a great opportunity to jump off the bandwagon and return to prior hobbies. Especially with the godawful new management and godawful rebrand around the corner.

Barring major offseason changes, this will be my story. Probably the story of others too.

Thanks for listening to my TED talk.

That 2017 team was fun as hell. They played for each other and had some of the best chemistry I've ever seen...pretty much the polar opposite of this current team. One of my favorite Jazz teams ever.

 

[fallenchicken]

If a Rudy trade exists, it's probably what the Jazz have to do. It might mean we take a step back next year, but we have already taken that step back the last few months of the season. I'm really nervous this team is going to end up in the play-in game. The season is heading for a disaster, a first round exit or worse. We don't have a choice. This season is the end of the road for this incarnation of the team. Everyone agrees we cannot bring this team back next year if they don't make it to at least the conference finals, and I don't have any faith in them to get there.

Rudy's salary is a third of our cap. We can't make any real changes with him here. Having Rudy dictates the style we have to play, and he becomes a much less effective player in the playoffs when you are playing good teams. We don't have the right roster around him, and we have no way to rebuild the roster around him. I think you need at least two other elite guard/forward players around Rudy, but we only have one. And I think you see the consequence of that in our clutch time play. It's not his fault, more the front office. We picked the wrong players to add to the Mitchell/Gobert core. And now, unfortunately, we have to break up the core.

Maybe Atlanta has a better roster fit for Gobert. It might be best for both sides.

We do a quick 1-year rebuild, hopefully. We work something out with Mitchell that benefits both sides. He signs the super max only we can give him, and he gives us a couple more years. If it becomes clear we can't put a championship team around him, we send him to wherever he wants to go and start a full rebuild.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It's definitely not easy. There's no way we trade Rudy straight up for another all star. Just doesn't work that way especially at his age, position and contract. And trading Mitchell only makes sense if he won't commit to at least the next few years. If he wants to be here at least the next few years, we have to try to build around him.

If we all assume a great team has 8 good players, we would have to assume that Rudy brings back 3 guys who are worthy of a good team's 8 man rotation.

Can we get that out of Atlanta with Collins, Capella and Huerter? Atlanta seems to be the most logical trade partner since they have aspirations and a need for a Rudy to play with Trae.

You won't get all that doe. I really think you are looking at Collins/Capela plus their late lotto pick this year. You have to hope like hell you hit a mid first home run on the wing or you are going to get back to mid/high 40s in win total under the best case scenarios.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

What we should do is keep Rudy under contract for the rest of his life. We can't play basketball without him....

Yes, things will change and some things will get worse with Rudy gone. Over the last 3 or 4 years, we have been an average of the 3 seed in the west. Even with Donovan putting up record numbers and doing some pretty elite playoff scoring stuff, we couldn't advance past the Nuggets or a depleted Clippers team. Regular season success and our "#1 offense" has not translated to playoff success at all.

If we trade Rudy, let's just say that we drop to a 6 or 7 seed next year as we make changes. I firmly believe that we are better contenders built like a modern day NBA playoff team that has 5 shooters and everybody switchable than we do built around this Rudy system.

If you trade Rudy you likely don't net 3 or 4 switchable defenders that are also averagish on offense. My biggest qualm is that moving Rudy for 3 pieces almost surely moves us closer to the middle and we don't have a cupboard full of assets to help restock... we need to do it quickly imo or else Donovan bails... and now you have spun your wheels for a couple years. I'd just go scorched earth if a change had to be made and focus my efforts on giving it the best chance possible.

 

[LoPo]

Which contenders this year have that construction?

Bucks have 5 guys who can shoot at least a little and can switch decently.

The Lakers won with 5 switchable guys who could shoot.

The Warriors play 5 down the stretch who can at least shoot okay and switch great.

Phoenix is TBD. Ayton has become a better shooter, but he's no Lopez yet.

The Celtics are loaded with switchable shooters.

Embiid and the 76ers can do it.

We might be the only good team in the league that insists on playing a clear nonshooter in closing situations.

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[LoPo]

If you trade Rudy you likely don't net 3 or 4 switchable defenders that are also averagish on offense. My biggest qualm is that moving Rudy for 3 pieces almost surely moves us closer to the middle and we don't have a cupboard full of assets to help restock... we need to do it quickly imo or else Donovan bails... and now you have spun your wheels for a couple years. I'd just go scorched earth if a change had to be made and focus my efforts on giving it the best chance possible.

Let's just go with this Atlanta scenario of Rudy and Gay for Capella, Collins and Huerter. Capella isn't going to be Rudy, but he will replace some of that production. Collins can play some center while Huerter gives us a much needed additional shooter.

Our closing lineup would have 2 lights out shooters (Bojan and Huerter), two capable shooters (Collins and Royce) with Don running the show. We don't have elite defenders, but we are more balanced in late game situations.

The task would be the deal after the Atlanta deal. Can we turn Conley, Clarkson or anything from the Atlanta deal into a defensive stopper? We need wing defenders. Can we sign one in free agency? Can we groom House and NAW into additional Royces?

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[Handlogten's Heros]

You won't get all that doe. I really think you are looking at Collins/Capela plus their late lotto pick this year. You have to hope like hell you hit a mid first home run on the wing or you are going to get back to mid/high 40s in win total under the best case scenarios.

And we may end up doing the full rebuild when Donovan asks out and whatever you traded Rudy for might still have value... so you might be fine. But the assets lose a little value, so does Donovan, and you lose the couple years of high picks while you tried to be the 8 seed. The end of the lotto or the 8 seed is where 5 year rebuilds become 10 year treadmills.

 

[MT Steve]

If you trade Rudy you likely don't net 3 or 4 switchable defenders that are also averagish on offense. My biggest qualm is that moving Rudy for 3 pieces almost surely moves us closer to the middle and we don't have a cupboard full of assets to help restock... we need to do it quickly imo or else Donovan bails... and now you have spun your wheels for a couple years. I'd just go scorched earth if a change had to be made and focus my efforts on giving it the best chance possible.

Exactly. If you trade Gobert you might as well go scorched earth. Keeping Mitchell would only be delaying the inevitable and making it harder to rebuild from, while very likely not being a playoff team anyways.

Like, if we're gonna go that route, I'd rather trade Mitchell. His value is probably overrated, whereas we know Gobert's is criminally underrated. Might not even fall back that much given that he'd no longer be here to tank all our close games.

 

[MT Steve]

We might be the only good team in the league that insists on playing a clear nonshooter in closing situations.

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I know Mitchell's shooting percentages in the clutch are bottom of the league bad, but calling him a nonshooter seems a bit harsh.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Let's just go with this Atlanta scenario of Rudy and Gay for Capella, Collins and Huerter. Capella isn't going to be Rudy, but he will replace some of that production. Collins can play some center while Huerter gives us a much needed additional shooter.

Our closing lineup would have 2 lights out shooters (Bojan and Huerter), two capable shooters (Collins and Royce) with Don running the show. We don't have elite defenders, but we are more balanced in late game situations.

The task would be the deal after the Atlanta deal. Can we turn Conley, Clarkson or anything from the Atlanta deal into a defensive stopper? We need wing defenders. Can we sign one in free agency? Can we groom House and NAW into additional Royces?

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I highly doubt we'd sneak Huerter out of the deal... could likely add a JC for Bogdan swap, so Rudy/JC for Capela/Collins/Bogey... and maybe a pick. Might be a solid playoff team but not a title team imo. Not every team has to be a contender... if I am Ainge I take all phone calls and just see how far a team might go for Donovan (if breaking up Rudy and Donovan is essential).

 

[LoPo]

Exactly. If you trade Gobert you might as well go scorched earth. Keeping Mitchell would only be delaying the inevitable and making it harder to rebuild from, while very likely not being a playoff team anyways.

Like, if we're gonna go that route, I'd rather trade Mitchell. His value is probably overrated, whereas we know Gobert's is criminally underrated. Might not even fall back that much given that he'd no longer be here to tank all our close games.

That's a great plan if you want to stay mediocre and only regular season relevant.

Gambling on a future built around Mitchell is bold, but could pan out to something we have never had.

You don't win titles built around $40 million offensively limited big men who are 30 or older. If you don't get that or don't agree, I just don't know what else to tell you.

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[One Brow]

Bucks have 5 guys who can shoot at least a little and can switch decently.

So, they don't quite fit your requirements.

The Lakers won with 5 switchable guys who could shoot.

So, not contenders this year.

The Warriors play 5 down the stretch who can at least shoot okay and switch great.

So, they only do this from time to time, and not as their full-time scheme.

Phoenix is TBD. Ayton has become a better shooter, but he's no Lopez yet.

So, not Phoenix.

The Celtics are loaded with switchable shooters.

Loaded with, but don't play in the manner you described as their full-time scheme.

Embiid and the 76ers can do it.

Embiid is a switchable big? I've never heard that before.

We might be the only good team in the league that insists on playing a clear nonshooter in closing situations.

Odd how you're having trouble finding one good case of it, though.

 

[LoPo]

I highly doubt we'd sneak Huerter out of the deal... could likely add a JC for Bogdan swap, so Rudy/JC for Capela/Collins/Bogey... and maybe a pick. Might be a solid playoff team but not a title team imo. Not every team has to be a contender... if I am Ainge I take all phone calls and just see how far a team might go for Donovan (if breaking up Rudy and Donovan is essential).

Huerter is a stretch, but Collins' value is buying him low while Capella doesn't have great trade value. The Hawks GM had already mentioned his concern about the luxury. Collins and Capella are long term deals that he might would rather use on the slightly cheaper Rudy.

I think we could get Bogdon pretty easily, but we gotta worry about our luxury situation too.

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