footawn
Well-Known Member
I’ll admit I got Lauri-cooper blindness
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Does Sexton Get Traded?
- Thread starter Saint Cy of JFC
- Start date
I think this whole "adding up our players to determine how much we win" is what everyone did in 2022-23 and 2023-24. Most in here have now twice underestimated the team which was a play-in team both of those years without the midseason trades.
Both years there were guys who performed better than most people initially expected (Lauri, Sexton and Kessler in 2022-23, Simone and Dunn in 2023-24), but the main reason we became a .500 team that outpaced some of the presumed contenders is that Hardy found working lineups/chemistry that maximized both of those teams.
Like what are we doing pretending that the same core group (Lauri, Kessler, Sexton, Clarkson) who is still here cant make us "too good" again? Everyone we have traded away over the past 2 season have been sidekicks and at best 4th/5th best guys on the roster.
I'm not saying its guaranteed that we will again be too good to tank, but I wouldnt give it incredibly low odds either.
Both years there were guys who performed better than most people initially expected (Lauri, Sexton and Kessler in 2022-23, Simone and Dunn in 2023-24), but the main reason we became a .500 team that outpaced some of the presumed contenders is that Hardy found working lineups/chemistry that maximized both of those teams.
Like what are we doing pretending that the same core group (Lauri, Kessler, Sexton, Clarkson) who is still here cant make us "too good" again? Everyone we have traded away over the past 2 season have been sidekicks and at best 4th/5th best guys on the roster.
I'm not saying its guaranteed that we will again be too good to tank, but I wouldnt give it incredibly low odds either.
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Yup, we will see if the FO learned from the Wemby year. They thought they would be bad enough that year too. You got to make some moves to assure it and not leave it up to chance. They should be more aware of that now knowing how good Lauri can be
Yeah I would definitely strip some parts if I really wanted to be in top 5 next year.
People forget that last season we had a horrible start with THT/Clarkson as the starting guard pair and with the "hunger games" distracting everyone they were turning the ball over left and right. If Hardy is coaching to win next year as he has been last 2 years, I presume the guard play will be much improved from Day 1 if we dont subtract from that.
We may not be able to have a stretch like we had in January, but we will almost certainly be better in October and November.
Also what happens if you have a soft schedule early?
Definitely something that should be taken into account. They usually release the full schedule around mid august, so at least we get to read and react if that happens.
Hedda Gambler
Well-Known Member
We probably still lose most of the games. We will have to run long stretches with 2-3 players on rookie deals will have to share the floor with you few proven guys. I have a hard time seeing a team that will have to play Hendricks, Sensabaugh, George, Williams and Collier serious minutes not being crushed by most other teams second units.
Sure, but Hardy has never just given rookies minutes early in the season. That's us expecting a thing that hasn't happened in two seasons under Hardy despite there being incentives to tank both seasons.
You have to force Hardys hand a bit and trade away one rotation player. Maybe it doesn't have to be Sexton, but Sexton is the most tradeable and the guy with the least amount of future team control.
How is that? Are you aggregating the young guys into being "consistently ineffective" or are you actually accounting for the fact that they are usually the exact opposite (= "inconsistently effective").
Lauri, Sexton, Kessler, Collins and Clarkson set the floor of this team to be at least better than 4 of the other teams (BKN, WAS, DET and POR). The youngsters are definitely gonna sink us in many games, but whenever they have one of them good games we are likely at least going to be competitive.
Also I certainly hope some of them have more good games than bad games coming up... dont you agree?
Jazz4ever
Well-Known Member
I think that's why the Jazz will probably hold onto him. His leadership/energy will be good for the young guys to witness.
The amount of vets on the roster is drastically different than in years past. You can’t tell me JCx2 matter without acknowledging the other vets we don’t have who got us to .500 level. Either these vets matter or they don’t, you can’t have it both ways.
If we do surprise, it will be different. It will come off the back of young players improving. It won’t come from having a wealth of depth and veterans as was the case in years past.
Thats fair but its also fair to say the vets we have were key guys in those two years and as many young guys as we have its likely one or more of them figures out ways to contribute.
And surprise is always the result of misestimating what you got. Despite having all those vets you or I or anyone else didnt see 2022-23 coming. So saying "but we had vets" now is just hindsight.
We still have Hardy, Lauri, Sexton, Clarkson and Kessler. I would say thats 5 of the top 6 contributors to our wins in the whole 2022-24 period.
You can speak for yourself, but strongly remember conversations before 22/23 talking about our depth and vets. A big reason why people thought we would suck is because we thought we would be trading those vets, it didn't happen. For 23/24, it wasn't even that big of a surprise and some thought we were going to make the playoffs. Beyond what we thought, there is also reality. You may have thought the vets in 22/23 sucked and we would have sucked without trading them. Reality was different, but we don't even have many vets this time around. Some guys have been better than expected, some worse....that is just reality. WE shouldn't keep ourselves from evaluating and just blindly assuming things will be the same despite significantly different roster compositions.
I think it's ok to use hindsight. You can very easily look at why those teams performed the way they did (whether it was a surprise or not) and learn from it. What I have learned is that vets and depth is what produces wins in the regular season, and this isn't some shocking development because everyone knows that youth is not what typically leads you to wins in the regular season. You seem to be totally fine looking back and saying "it happened before, it's going to happen again". I think it's only fair to look back and say "this is why it happened before, things are different now".
We simply do not have the same presence of depth and vets on this roster. The west is also better than it was last year and the approach to this season appears to be different. Coaching for development is not the same thing as coaching for maximizing wins. By all reports we are doing the former and not the latter. Even if we tried to do the latter, we don't stack up close to the other teams so we would probably end up quitting again and this time much earlier. If you were asking about how we'd stack up against these teams in a 7 game series or how we'd do if we didn't own our draft pick and had no incentive to tank I may feel differently....but that's not the case.
Would anyone give up a draft asset to facilitate a trade of Sexton for Anthony Black?
It would have to be Black + Anthony or Black + Harris.
Would you have to give up anything or would the Magic just take that? They could be a position to take a major step forward. Sexton would be a massive upgrade over Anthony as a 6th man (or starter if they move Suggs to the bench). I love their team, but a dynamic scoring guard like Sexton could put them into conference finals territory.
Jazz could probably route Anthony to a 3rd team for 2nd rounders. He is a quality 6th man.
It would have to be Black + Anthony or Black + Harris.
Would you have to give up anything or would the Magic just take that? They could be a position to take a major step forward. Sexton would be a massive upgrade over Anthony as a 6th man (or starter if they move Suggs to the bench). I love their team, but a dynamic scoring guard like Sexton could put them into conference finals territory.
Jazz could probably route Anthony to a 3rd team for 2nd rounders. He is a quality 6th man.
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Coach Ellis
Well-Known Member
I’d do that deal. Make it a 2027 pick with some protections, and I’d be on board for it.
Keyonte / Collier / Anthony
Black / Clarkson / Juzang
Markkanen / Williams / Sensabaugh
Hendricks / Filipowski
Kessler / Collins / Eubanks
Won’t win much this year, but it would be a fun team to build for the future. Doubt the Magic go for that though.
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
Well-Known Member
trading Sexton is even dumber than trading Markkanen. Last year he was 100% healthy for the first time since his injury year in Cleveland. And he showed great improvement as the season went on. I think he has an even better year this year. We shouldn’t trade him for two reasons. 1, he’s not valued much around the league we couldn’t get Back what he’s worth. 2, he’s a building block like Lauri. If we aren’t trading Lauri, then why trade Sexton.
I mostly agree, but the difference is that our ability to get a guy like Sexton once we are wanting to win games will be much easier than getting a guy like Lauri.
I dont disagree, but at the same time, do the Jazz want to invest big money into Sexton?
I also dont think Sexton will want to stay in Utah if he isnt a starter. Maybe they will end up doing the same thing with Sexton next year that they did with Lauri this year. I have no idea. I will be pleasantly surprised if he we keep Sexton and successfully tank, and dont draft a player at his position, but that all seems highly unlikely.
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
Well-Known Member
Guys like him don’t grow on trees. Most scoring guards are inefficient. They don’t come more efficient than him at any other wing or guard position. He never had any mentorship in Cleveland to speak of. He has that now with Hardy. And seems like the two are tight. Hardy coaches him pretty hard and doesn’t let him get away with doing what he did in Cleveland. And the best part is Sexton is thankful for it. And he’s improving. If we were talking about JC I’d agree. I don’t think he’s all that replaceable to be honest.
There are many guards and wings as efficient or more than Sexton. What would be hard to replace is getting someone who works as hard as him.