Exum Update

[tleikheen]

Look where Mack is now ...at the end of the bench on the worst team in the NBA record wise. He isn't getting minutes like he did with Snyder when he makes mistakes .It was said last year Mack wouldn't get minutes anywhere else.
Makes me believe that Mack played only because he was Haywards buddy and Snyder played along with that,that Hayward didn't like Exum ...that's a BS way to coach a team.

 

[silesian]

Westbrook isnt bad off-ball because of his shooting...

Yeah, I get that. My post was messy, with my Westbrook analogy flowing over to what I was saying about Simmons. Crappy post, in retrospect.

 

[Engorged On Unborn Gore]

He had a better game than that against OKC sometime around January or February. He had a couple times where he scored double digit points for 3 games in a row and then got hardly any minutes after that for a stretch.

Okay, but Mack also had couple stretches of 3 games of double digit points. In addition to that, he had a stretch of 4 games in March/April where he scored double digits on 53% shooting.

Look where Mack is now ...

Not relevant. Come back with something relevant.

All of this is beside the point. I'm not arguing that when both players are completely healthy and ready to rock that Quinn should go with Mack. I'm simply pointing to the actual circumstances of what happened last year.

Exum had some productive games/stretches, but it doesn't compare to what Mack did last year. Mack shot 48% last year in the last 8 games leading up to the playoffs, and averaged 11.5 points, 2.8 assists, and 1.1 TOV in 27 mpg in that stretch. Exum never had a run like that. Mack had 20 double digit scoring games total (Exum had 19), 28 where he scored 8+ (Exum 24), and 14 games where he got 5+ assists (Exum 3). Nothing special, but that's rotational bench production that Exum's didn't equal when given more opportunities.

Mack did his work in 55 games. Exum suited up 67 times. If Exum was so much better than Mack last year, then why didn't he outshine him?

For those of you who believe Exum was "done wrong" by Quinn last year (Exum had 26 starts vs. Mack's 9), what exactly did he do to definitively knock Mack out of the rotation? Those two videos don't even show enough to bench Mack through his final 8 game stretch. Simply show me a stretch of games that underscores your argument.

 

[Quin's Murderface]

Okay, but Mack also had couple stretches of 3 games of double digit points. In addition to that, he had a stretch of 4 games in March/April where he scored double digits on 53% shooting.



Not relevant. Come back with something relevant.

All of this is beside the point. I'm not arguing that when both players are completely healthy and ready to rock that Quinn should go with Mack. I'm simply pointing to the actual circumstances of what happened last year.

Exum had some productive games/stretches, but it doesn't compare to what Mack did last year. Mack shot 48% last year in the last 8 games leading up to the playoffs, and averaged 11.5 points, 2.8 assists, and 1.1 TOV in 27 mpg in that stretch. Exum never had a run like that. Mack had 20 double digit scoring games total (Exum had 19), 28 where he scored 8+ (Exum 24), and 14 games where he got 5+ assists (Exum 3). Nothing special, but that's rotational bench production that Exum's didn't equal when given more opportunities.

Mack did his work in 55 games. Exum suited up 67 times. If Exum was so much better than Mack last year, then why didn't he outshine him?

For those of you who believe Exum was "done wrong" by Quinn last year (Exum had 26 starts vs. Mack's 9), what exactly did he do to definitively knock Mack out of the rotation? Those two videos don't even show enough to bench Mack through his final 8 game stretch. Simply show me a stretch of games that underscores your argument.

Mack shouldn't have been in for that final 8 game stretch where he played decent offensively and was terrible defensively. He was only playing because Quin randomly benched Exum for the 10th time that season. We have no idea how Exum would have done if he had been given a consistent role all year during those games. That stretch by mack still didn't make him a better player last year overall. In the playoffs he was horrific anyway although he hit a bunch of threes in his last game so his stats look a little bit better. You can't compare a journeyman and a young high lottery pick and say that they should be treated the same way by the staff. If the younger player has an argument to be playing more than the journeyman, or if it's close then he should ALWAYS get the minutes. If there is a big difference between the players then I think you can argue that playing the vet is reasonable. Quin should have committed to Exum as the backup all year no matter what. Not only would the production have been about the same even if Exum hadn't had more growth than he did in his haphazard playing time, but he would have had the chance to experience so many more game situations that would have helped him progress and maybe be more of a playoff factor than Mack. After the first of the year it was clear that Exum's floor was about Mack's level of production overall. There was no real risk in playing Exum all the time.

I think this argument that people make that Exum needed to somehow clearly beat out Mack is disingenuous. Especially if you lived through the Corbin years it's crazy that people think playing a guy like Mack over developing Exum was a good decision for the team. We gave MAck all this leeway to play terribly and make errors but killed Exum for a couple TO's in one game at the same time.

 

[Engorged On Unborn Gore]

Quin should have committed to Exum as the backup all year no matter what.

This statement underscores a philosophical chasm that you and I will likely never bridge.

 

[Quin's Murderface]

This statement underscores a philosophical chasm that you and I will likely never bridge.

Yeah I think so. In a way it is the same principle as giving a guy an extension for above his current production value. You bank on development when you are dealing with young players. Maybe saying the entire season is a stretch, but he should have been very slow to eliminate a stable role for Exum. I don't think Exum's play warranted all the volatility in his PT. I think that volatility hurt him as a young player, and made him more hesitant to make mistakes if anything. I don't think the decision had anything to do with Exum's development which is why I think it was handled badly.

 

[Engorged On Unborn Gore]

I don't think the decision had anything to do with Exum's development which is why I think it was handled badly.

I think this a nebulous assumption, and I think you'd have a lot of difficulty showing any evidence to support it.

But either way, Exum is going to have to prove that he is far better than the Shelvin Macks of the world if he wants to succeed in the NBA. I sincerely hope it is with the Jazz that he does so.

 

[Douchebag K]

Yeah I think so. In a way it is the same principle as giving a guy an extension for above his current production value. You bank on development when you are dealing with young players. Maybe saying the entire season is a stretch, but he should have been very slow to eliminate a stable role for Exum. I don't think Exum's play warranted all the volatility in his PT. I think that volatility hurt him as a young player, and made him more hesitant to make mistakes if anything. I don't think the decision had anything to do with Exum's development which is why I think it was handled badly.

i clearly lay the blame at the feet of Haydouche

 

[Quin's Murderface]

I think this a nebulous assumption, and I think you'd have a lot of difficulty showing any evidence to support it.

But either way, Exum is going to have to prove that he is far better than the Shelvin Macks of the world if he wants to succeed in the NBA. I sincerely hope it is with the Jazz that he does so.

If you subscribe to the idea that PT/role=development (though that obviously isn't the only part of development) then it's pretty hard to defend last year as something that was focused on Exum's development. That, and the team repeatedly saying that they were going all in to win I think is pretty compelling evidence that they were not focused on developing Exum as much as they could have been. I'm sure they were still working with him off the court and so he was developed in that way, but there's simply no replacement for playing in real games and experiencing situations. I would turn that around on you and say that I think there is much more proof that they ignored development than there is that this haphazard approach was a cohesive developmental program for Exum.

 

[Quin's Murderface]

i clearly lay the blame at the feet of Haydouche

I think Hayward was the cause, but I think it had more to do with what DL and Quin thought would entice Hayward as opposed to some kind of Hayward plot to play Mack more. I think the whole last year of Hayward here was one panic move after another. I really hope that DL learns his lesson and is a little bit more proactive in the future. Don't skip steps! They skipped a couple steps.

 

[Douchebag K]

I think Hayward was the cause, but I think it had more to do with what DL and Quin thought would entice Hayward as opposed to some kind of Hayward plot to play Mack more. I think the whole last year of Hayward here was one panic move after another. I really hope that DL learns his lesson and is a little bit more proactive in the future. Don't skip steps! They skipped a couple steps.

moreso than skipping steps they shouldn't ever try to appease a player to stay. Can't have the inmates running the asylum

 

[Quin's Murderface]

moreso than skipping steps they shouldn't ever try to appease a player to stay. Can't have the inmates running the asylum

Yeah that's what I meant. Just do the right thing for the franchise and let that speak for itself. Bringing in a couple vets was fine, but they should have made sure to clear the path for Exum to develop since he was a big investment that they need to make a decision on.

 

[tleikheen]

Look where Mack is now ...


Not relevant. Come back with something relevant.

All of this is beside the point. I'm not arguing that when both players are completely healthy and ready to rock that Quinn should go with Mack. I'm simply pointing to the actual circumstances of what happened last year.

Its very relevant..... Mack is only 27 yrs old .Did he get dramatically worst a s ball player between 26 y o and 27 y o .
Now he's 3rd PG on the worst team in the NBA buried at the end of Orlando's bench ,YET some guys here think he was a critical piece for Snyder in the drive to the playoffs...NOT. We don't know how much better Exum would be if he got all those Mack minutes ....it's for sure now that Utah is diving for the lottery Exum is more highly thought of and valued while waiting for him to return to action.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

Simply put, Mack was better then Exum last year. This is what happens to young raw players who play for playoff teams. They sit the bench and watch a ton. Even so, 98% of Exum's DNPCD's were in a one month span, the rest of the year he was getting 15-25 min a game. Had the jazz won 25 games Exum would've played more, a lot more.

 

[Engorged On Unborn Gore]

Its very relevant...

Perhaps to you. But it's not relevant to the actual discussion.

 

[Miggs]

Look where Mack is now ...at the end of the bench on the worst team in the NBA record wise. He isn't getting minutes like he did with Snyder when he makes mistakes .It was said last year Mack wouldn't get minutes anywhere else.
Makes me believe that Mack played only because he was Haywards buddy and Snyder played along with that,that Hayward didn't like Exum ...that's a BS way to coach a team.

So you’re insisting that a coach with the worst record in the league knows what he’s doing but not a coach who won 51 games last year despite having the worst games lost due to injuries in the entire NBA?

 

[Quin's Murderface]

Simply put, Mack was better then Exum last year. This is what happens to young raw players who play for playoff teams. They sit the bench and watch a ton. Even so, 98% of Exum's DNPCD's were in a one month span, the rest of the year he was getting 15-25 min a game. Had the jazz won 25 games Exum would've played more, a lot more.

He had a lot of quick hooks all through the year. I've been watching the game for a long time and I honestly don't think Mack was a better player last year after the first month and a half. It's not the end of the world, but I was very surprised that DL and Quin went that direction last year.

 

[Thee Idiotic Minivan K]

He had a lot of quick hooks all through the year. I've been watching the game for a long time and I honestly don't think Mack was a better player last year after the first month and a half. It's not the end of the world, but I was very surprised that DL and Quin went that direction last year.

Like I said. He played on a playoff team, and Exum was making a lot of rookie mistakes, while Exum was, is more talented, Mack for much of the year played more mistake free basketball, and Exum was coming off a major injury.


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[infection]

Like I said. He played on a playoff team, and Exum was making a lot of rookie mistakes, while Exum was, is more talented, Mack for much of the year played more mistake free basketball, and Exum was coming off a major injury.


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Mistake free? If Exum was on the floor he was fairly invisible — this was a good thing. Mack was very visible — this was a very bad thing.

 

[Dali]

The bottom line in all of this poses the question, what is/was the end result in all of this? Well, the end result is that Mack was given preference in this situation. A player that everybody knew would be let go at the end of the season, instead of a player with a higher ceiling, a young player who you are trying to develop.

Does that sit well with everybody? Anybody? The difference between the two was minimal either way, but there was a wide gap in defense between them, as whenever I watched Mack on defense it looked like he was on quicksand.

The decision was baffling at the time, and even more so now in hindsight knowing about Dante's second big injury. I say this considering how much he has already missed, and considering that he needed/needs as much playing time as possible.

When will he finally be allowed to make 'rookie' mistakes? 23/24 years of age?

Donovan was allowed to get his nonsense out of his system for the first 2 or 3 weeks, and boy did he get it out of his system! I do realise though they were different circumstances, and different team expectations.