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Fesenko +7 rest of team -

Elson and Fesenko played often together early in the year. They both were backing up the PF and C spots. A four man rotation with them and and the two starters Millsap and Jefferson until Okur got back.

Game 1: Blowout Loss
Elson: 15:31 6-8-1
Fes: 11:09 2-0-0

Game 2: Blowout Loss
Elson: 4:21 2-1-0
Fesenko: 6:46 4-4-0

Game 3: Blowout Win
Neither played significant minutes and recorded no stats of note

Game 4: Blowout Win
Elson: 11:37 6-3-0
Fes: DNP

Game 5: Loss
Elson: 15:21 2-3-1
Fes: DNP

As you keep looking down the list, Fesenko will play games more, and Elson less, and then the cycle repeats. Neither player was outdoing the other. I don't see why you'd play Fesenko more than Elson given they're very similar. Elson is the better offensive player, Fesenko the better defensive player. I just don't see how giving all of Elson's minutes to Fesenko would make Fesenko any different of a player.
 
Darkwing Duck said:
Elson and Fesenko played often together early in the year. They both were backing up the PF and C spots. A four man rotation with them and and the two starters Millsap and Jefferson until Okur got back.

Game 1: Blowout Loss
Elson: 15:31 6-8-1
Fes: 11:09 2-0-0

Game 2: Blowout Loss
Elson: 4:21 2-1-0
Fesenko: 6:46 4-4-0

Game 3: Blowout Win
Neither played significant minutes and recorded no stats of note

Game 4: Blowout Win
Elson: 11:37 6-3-0
Fes: DNP

Game 5: Loss
Elson: 15:21 2-3-1
Fes: DNP

As you keep looking down the list, Fesenko will play games more, and Elson less, and then the cycle repeats. Neither player was outdoing the other. I don't see why you'd play Fesenko more than Elson given they're very similar. Elson is the better offensive player, Fesenko the better defensive player. I just don't see how giving all of Elson's minutes to Fesenko would make Fesenko any different of a player.
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The reasoning is one player has no chance to improve. Another player might. But he needs the chance play consistently for that to happen. And the strength of the player who can improve happens to be defense at a position of glaring need. We had everything to gain by giving the guy a regular job and little to lose.
 
Laker fan's have been running their mouth non stop lately about Bynum being the second coming of Christ. It was completely awesome to see Fess beat him up and take his lunch money.

Fesenko's impact on defense >>>>> Elson's impact on offense

Having said that, because of his offensive inabilities, I think it's hard to play him regular minutes. Just the same, I would have liked to have seen him used more in close games at the end when Utah was having a hard time getting stops.
 
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freakazoid said:
Laker fan's have been running their mouth non stop lately about Bynum being the second coming of Christ. It was completely awesome to see Fess beat him up and take his lunch money.

Fesenko's impact on defense >>>>> Elson's impact on offense

Having said that, because of his offensive inabilities, I think it's hard to play him regular minutes. Just the same, I would have liked to have seen him used more in close games at the end when Utah was having a hard time getting stops.
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Makes to much sense.
 
Fes is an enigma as you can tell from the wide range of the posters' comments. He actually played great in the first half. But what I think caused his performance to suffer as the game wore on was his conditioning. I noticed the speed with which he ran the floor became progressively slower.

There's no doubt he could be an impact player, but someone has to get this guy's attention. What if the Jazz sent him to Karl Malone. Maybe Karl could whip him into shape and show him how to use his body on offense under the basket ??? Maybe Karl could get Fes to start taking himself and basketball seriously.
 
write4u said:
Fes is an enigma as you can tell from the wide range of the posters' comments. He actually played great in the first half. But what I think caused his performance to suffer as the game wore on was his conditioning. I noticed the speed with which he ran the floor became progressively slower.

There's no doubt he could be an impact player, but someone has to get this guy's attention. What if the Jazz sent him to Karl Malone. Maybe Karl could whip him into shape and show him how to use his body on offense under the basket ??? Maybe Karl could get Fes to start taking himself and basketball seriously.
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It is very difficult to get into basketball shape when you don't play. He should have been playing at some point. Just to see what he is. Now he is probably gone and the Jazz will never know what he was or if he could have been a rotation guy.
 
Talking to a Laker fan "friend" of mine gave me a special appreciation for Fes and the game he played in the first half against LA.

He put Kobe on his ***, multiple times. My buddy was stunned, he said NO ONE has touched Kobe all season. He really respected Fes for his physical play.

Fes don't give a ****.
 
franklin said:
Longwind Duck is owning this thread. It's not even close.
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Not really, just showing his ignorance regarding and understanding the game. You don't judge a player purely on points and rebounds, Fes impacts the game beyond boxscore stats. He simply takes up so much space on defense and when boxing out that it makes it 10 times easier for his teammates to rebound. We were out rebounding the twin tower Lakers by 10 at the first half with Fes in the game. He has the team best +/- rating THIS YEAR AND LAST YEAR. I don't understand this board at all. You have a 1 million dollar player that is obviously impacting a game verse the NBA elite and you just want to bash him all day. Let's talk about AL Jefferson as our future center then, and how his average 20 win teams over the last six years have been a fluke. He is the future at center!
 
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Jazz4ever said:
Let's talk about AL Jefferson as our future center then, and how his average 20 win teams over the last six years have been a fluke. He is the future at center!
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Jazz4ever said:
Let's talk about AL Jefferson as our future center then, and how his average 20 win teams over the last six years have been a fluke. He is the future at center!
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You are indeed correct sir. Al is our best player and our future together with Favors.
 
Jazz4ever said:
Not really, just showing his ignorance regarding and understanding the game. You don't judge a player purely on points and rebounds, Fes impacts the game beyond boxscore stats. He simply takes up so much space on defense and when boxing out that it makes it 10 times easier for his teammates to rebound. We were out rebounding the twin tower Lakers by 10 at the first half with Fes in the game. He has the team best +/- rating THIS YEAR AND LAST YEAR. I don't understand this board at all. You have a 1 million dollar player that is obviously impacting a game verse the NBA elite and you just want to bash him all day. Let's talk about AL Jefferson as our future center then, and how his average 20 win teams over the last six years have been a fluke. He is the future at center!
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Exactamundo! But some people want to see him put up big numbers every game, even when he only gets 2 minutes of garbage time.
 
Jazz4ever said:
Not really, just showing his ignorance regarding and understanding the game. You don't judge a player purely on points and rebounds, Fes impacts the game beyond boxscore stats. He simply takes up so much space on defense and when boxing out that it makes it 10 times easier for his teammates to rebound. We were out rebounding the twin tower Lakers by 10 at the first half with Fes in the game. He has the team best +/- rating THIS YEAR AND LAST YEAR. I don't understand this board at all. You have a 1 million dollar player that is obviously impacting a game verse the NBA elite and you just want to bash him all day. Let's talk about AL Jefferson as our future center then, and how his average 20 win teams over the last six years have been a fluke. He is the future at center!
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The Jazz rebound on the defensive end no differently with him in the game then when he's not. Actually, the Jazz do rebound better with him in, about .6% better, which is as negligible as you can get. He helps the team a bit on the offensive boards, and can lower the other team's FG%. That's it. His help on defense is far outweighed by his liability on offense. You look at his +/- scores, and then look at win shares, game score, and other such things and see that he impacts that +/- very little.

Then you look at him on the floor and see a guy who most of the time fouls weakly and lazily, who has really bad hands and no matter what his wingspan may be listed as, can't seem to raise his hands straight up. He's fairly clumsy save for the few moves he's spent a long time trying to develop. He's an average passer for a player who teams know can't shoot and can't face up.

He fails the stats test AND the eye test. As Billyshelby is arguing, he's played in times of blowout, so the +/- is skewed anyway and can't be taken without looking at other factors, which when you do, Fesenko falls flat constantly. There is absolutely no indication that Fesenko would be an impact role player playing consistent minutes on a team over the course of an entire season. You guys pay attention to all of C.J. Miles' below average bad games and deride his rarer good games as his one good game in five, yet you won't do the same for Fesenko. You make the argument, well, we don't know what would happen. I argue that you WOULD know what would happen, the same numbers averaged out over longer minutes.
 
Oh, and I just noticed. Ronnie (insert profanity) Price has a positive +/-. That MUST mean, BEYOND a shadow of a doubt, that the Jazz will win more games with Ronnie Price playing 40 minutes instead of zero.
 
Darkwing Duck said:
The Jazz rebound on the defensive end no differently with him in the game then when he's not. Actually, the Jazz do rebound better with him in, about .6% better, which is as negligible as you can get. He helps the team a bit on the offensive boards, and can lower the other team's FG%. That's it. His help on defense is far outweighed by his liability on offense. You look at his +/- scores, and then look at win shares, game score, and other such things and see that he impacts that +/- very little.

Then you look at him on the floor and see a guy who most of the time fouls weakly and lazily, who has really bad hands and no matter what his wingspan may be listed as, can't seem to raise his hands straight up. He's fairly clumsy save for the few moves he's spent a long time trying to develop. He's an average passer for a player who teams know can't shoot and can't face up.

He fails the stats test AND the eye test. As Billyshelby is arguing, he's played in times of blowout, so the +/- is skewed anyway and can't be taken without looking at other factors, which when you do, Fesenko falls flat constantly. There is absolutely no indication that Fesenko would be an impact role player playing consistent minutes on a team over the course of an entire season. You guys pay attention to all of C.J. Miles' below average bad games and deride his rarer good games as his one good game in five, yet you won't do the same for Fesenko. You make the argument, well, we don't know what would happen. I argue that you WOULD know what would happen, the same numbers averaged out over longer minutes.
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Is his +/- skewed? Probably, but what would it hurt to play him a solid 25 minutes for two months straight? That way you at least find out what you have. Some players improve drastically with real playing time, it cannot be simulated in practice. The Jazz had that chance with Okur down, and yet they chose to play Jefferson super heavy minutes and give Elson minutes who we know is a bona fide scrub with no room for improvement. Now the Jazz will go into the off season wondering whether to resign Fesenko, and most likely will not. Some team will, like Houston, and he will blow up in their system just like many other players they have successfully developed over the years(Landry, Lowry, Scola, Hayes).
 
Jazz4ever said:
Is his +/- skewed? Probably, but what would it hurt to play him a solid 25 minutes for two months straight? That way you at least find out what you have. Some players improve drastically with real playing time, it cannot be simulated in practice. The Jazz had that chance with Okur down, and yet they chose to play Jefferson super heavy minutes and give Elson minutes who we know is a bona fide scrub with no room for improvement. Now the Jazz will go into the off season wondering whether to resign Fesenko, and most likely will not. Some team will, like Houston, and he will blow up in their system just like many other players they have successfully developed over the years(Landry, Lowry, Scola, Hayes).
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You don't need 25 minutes for 2 months to find out what you have with Fesenko.
 
Folks, Fess is a waste. He's one of those undedicated softies that need to be off this team pronto.

While I agree that Elson took up mins from guys like Evans, Fess, and Favors this year. I don't believe we need to see more out of Fess. Actually, it's quite obvious that we've seen quite enough.

In addition to upgrading talent at the 2-3, we desperately need to upgrade in the toughness/dedication area. Guys who are just along for the ride, like Fess, AK, etc need to be cut. Even if they're replaced by guys like... Otherus Jeffers or something. Guys less sexy but will give us 100 %.

Look at it this way, Fess had the opportunity of a lifetime to come in and show what he could do in this league this year. After a mildly encouraging playoff season, he came into this season as our (only) legit center. Yet, he somehow managed to have enough headaches, sinus infections (hangovers), missed dunks, fouls, etc to scare management into playing other players ahead of him.

Even Fess admitted after the Lakers game (after only playing like 20 mins) that he needs to get into better shape. Ummmm one shouldn't be having a problem with conditioning in April.

Which essentially solves the question about Fess. Truly dedicated players aren't trying to get into shape at the tail end of the season.
 
The Thriller said:
Folks, Fess is a waste. He's one of those undedicated softies that need to be off this team pronto.

While I agree that Elson took up mins from guys like Evans, Fess, and Favors this year. I don't believe we need to see more out of Fess. Actually, it's quite obvious that we've seen quite enough.

In addition to upgrading talent at the 2-3, we desperately need to upgrade in the toughness/dedication area. Guys who are just along for the ride, like Fess, AK, etc need to be cut. Even if they're replaced by guys like... Otherus Jeffers or something. Guys less sexy but will give us 100 %.

Look at it this way, Fess had the opportunity of a lifetime to come in and show what he could do in this league this year. After a mildly encouraging playoff season, he came into this season as our (only) legit center. Yet, he somehow managed to have enough headaches, sinus infections (hangovers), missed dunks, fouls, etc to scare management into playing other players ahead of him.

Even Fess admitted after the Lakers game (after only playing like 20 mins) that he needs to get into better shape. Ummmm one shouldn't be having a problem with conditioning in April.

Which essentially solves the question about Fess. Truly dedicated players aren't trying to get into shape at the tail end of the season.
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So Otherus Jeffers is going to match up and handle Bynum then? Ok let me write that down.
 
Jazz4ever said:
So Otherus Jeffers is going to match up and handle Bynum then? Ok let me write that down.
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Anyone want to mention Fesenko's inability to post up on a guy half a foot (at least) shorter and one hundred pounds (at least) lighter guarding him, despite the Jazz' multiple attempts to do so? Westphal actually did some good coaching there after Millsap abused Garcia.
 
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