What's new
By:

For those of you doubting Gordon Hayward...

Cyrone Torbin said:
The only question I have about Hayward's shooting is he can become a better shooter off the dribble, don't have the numbers or anything, but I would assume he is at best an average shooter off the bounce.
Click to expand...

That might be tough for him because he has one of the slowest releases in the league. He is like an old medieval war machine that needs setup time to be be loaded and fired. In fact when Hayward was rushed or contested even a little on his set shots, he usually missed.
 
b_line said:
There are two areas where George clearly is better than Hayward.

George rebounds better.
George is blacker than Hayward. If Hayward was black do you think we would be calling him "surprisingly" athletic? He is either athletic or not. Just choose one. He can be athletic and white. It is not mutually exclusive.

Paul George might play better defense than Hayward. But Hayward plays pretty darn good D and he is on a terrible defensive team.
Click to expand...
He was on
 
AKMVP said:
Hayward played almost 30 min a game two seasons in a row - not much difference from George. Kanter, Burks, Favors are different story - they played way less minutes then Hayward, you can't use them as example.
Click to expand...
You can't argue per game is the end all be all and then discount 3 players your argument does not work for. Either it is the best way to look at the stat or it is not. Simply put Gordon is every bit as good at passing as George for each minute they are on the floor. He gets about the same # of assists per minute on the floor despite lower usage(your stat)
.
I'm not even trying to say I'd take Hayward over George right now. Because I probably wouldn't. But your insistence that he is simply better is every bit as biased as the rest of the fans here. Your whole argument about the passing is you trying to skew the stats to show something you have already decided is the truth. But it's not as simple as you are trying to say. I'll give you George is a better leader and rebounder than Gordon (right now). But all of the other stats are either so close not to matter or favor Hayward. Take Al out of Gordon's stats and they are even more clearly in Hayward's favor. Which is a good sign for this year.
.
And I know you don't buy into per 36 stats. Well I'll say that they are a far better indicator than per game, because per game the biggest impact on the stats is determined by how many minutes you play.
 
I like Hayward more and I don't like George at all.

But, George>Hayward, imo.
 
Just made this gif. I hate the offseason. I love Hayward.

tbu.gif
 
Hayward is SO bad he was arguably the best shooter at the US national team camp this summer. Better trade him now; the guy is a BUST!
 
Player A:
Shooting percentages (2 pt/3pt) of:
2010-11: 45%/30%
2011-12: 44%/39%
2012-13: 42%/36%

Player B:
Shooting percentages (2 pt/3pt) of:
2010-11: 49%/47%
2011-12: 46%/35%
2012-13: 44%/42%

Obviously, Player B is far superior. In only one statistic (3-pt FG% in 2011-12) did Player A outperform Player B. In the other five measuerments, Player A was better from 2%-17%!

Have to admit AKMVP, there is clear evidence. Congrats!
 
Core4 said:
Player A:
Shooting percentages (2 pt/3pt) of:
2010-11: 45%/30%
2011-12: 44%/39%
2012-13: 42%/36%

Player B:
Shooting percentages (2 pt/3pt) of:
2010-11: 49%/47%
2011-12: 46%/35%
2012-13: 44%/42%

Obviously, Player B is far superior. In only one statistic (3-pt FG% in 2011-12) did Player A outperform Player B. In the other five measuerments, Player A was better from 2%-17%!

Have to admit AKMVP, there is clear evidence. Congrats!
Click to expand...

Have I ever argued that Hayward is better shooter? My main argument was that people where trying to sell Hayward as better passer and that is simply not true. Even if you look at per 36min stats, usage rate, offensive system differences, etc - they are at least equal passers. And it is not given that extra 7 minutes Hayward would get will help him to get 1.1 assist more. George by the way averaged over 5 ast during last playoffs. How did Hayward performed during playoffs?
 
AKMVP said:
Have I ever argued that Hayward is better shooter? My main argument was that people where trying to sell Hayward as better passer and that is simply not true. Even if you look at per 36min stats, usage rate, offensive system differences, etc - they are at least equal passers. And it is not given that extra 7 minutes Hayward would get will help him to get 1.1 assist more. George by the way averaged over 5 ast during last playoffs. How did Hayward performed during playoffs?
Click to expand...

So you are admitting that you were wrong when you said George was clearly the better passer? Also, Hayward would have to get 8-9 more minutes per game to average the same as George, so he would likely get the 1.1 assists needed to match him. How does crow taste?
 
hey, paul george has a better 2k13 rating and will have a better 2k14

can we now close this thread?
 
AKMVP said:
Have I ever argued that Hayward is better shooter? My main argument was that people where trying to sell Hayward as better passer and that is simply not true. Even if you look at per 36min stats, usage rate, offensive system differences, etc - they are at least equal passers. And it is not given that extra 7 minutes Hayward would get will help him to get 1.1 assist more. George by the way averaged over 5 ast during last playoffs. How did Hayward performed during playoffs?
Click to expand...

In order for this arguement to have any value whatsoever you need to compare Hayward first, and so far only, playoff appearance to George's first playoff appearance. Using George's last years playoffs to Haywards first is intellectually dishonest.
 
Stoked said:
In order for this arguement to have any value whatsoever you need to compare Hayward first, and so far only, playoff appearance to George's first playoff appearance. Using George's last years playoffs to Haywards first is intellectually dishonest.
Click to expand...

Well, it wouldn't have mattered. Hayward shot 18% against the Spurs, and 8% from three....that makes Trey Burke's summer league numbers look like all star numbers :)
 
b_line said:
So you are admitting that you were wrong when you said George was clearly the better passer? Also, Hayward would have to get 8-9 more minutes per game to average the same as George, so he would likely get the 1.1 assists needed to match him. How does crow taste?
Click to expand...

No crow here. George is better passer - more assists per game and per 36minutes. It is you homers who reaching straws and trying to look into big AL factor, usage rate and other irrelevant stats.
And it is not easy to average over 4 assist per game even if you have more minutes. More minutes could mean more fatigue, less accuracy and more turnovers. So better indicator would be to look at per 29 minute stats or whatever Hayward played last year. Given same time George still averages 3.2 assists - 0.2 more then Hayward. Maybe not as clearly as per game stats indicate but still better is better.
 
AKMVP said:
No crow here. George is better passer - more assists per game and per 36minutes. It is you homers who reaching straws and trying to look into big AL factor, usage rate and other irrelevant stats.
And it is not easy to average over 4 assist per game even if you have more minutes. More minutes could mean more fatigue, less accuracy and more turnovers. So better indicator would be to look at per 29 minute stats or whatever Hayward played last year. Given same time George still averages 3.2 assists - 0.2 more then Hayward. Maybe not as clearly as per game stats indicate but still better is better.
Click to expand...

So does that make him clearly the better passer? They are basically the same. Factor in that Hayward has less turnovers and it skews Hayward's direction. Why then would you say that it was clear that George was a better passer then back up and say they are the same? Just admit, the numbers are pretty similar. No one here is saying that Hayward is better than George. All we are saying is that this "George is clearly better in all areas" crap is nonsense. Hayward is good. He will have a great season. He will probably end up with stats similar to Paul George. That is all I was saying.
 
Stoked said:
In order for this arguement to have any value whatsoever you need to compare Hayward first, and so far only, playoff appearance to George's first playoff appearance.
Click to expand...

I do not think it is fair either. Player A may appear in playoffs first time during his rookie year while Player B may appear in playoffs during his 5's year. Obviously player B will have better stats in his first every playoffs due to overall better experience in the league.
I know it does not apply to Hayward, just making a point here.
 
b_line said:
No one here is saying that Hayward is better than George.
Click to expand...

Well all argument started when Cyron said that George is better rebounder and defender, and in all other aspects Hayward is better. Which is not true.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page
Back
Top