Game #31. Jazz at Memphis. Monday 6pm mtn

[GVC]

This memphis game was the perfect example........ burks was playing pretty well and then had a couple of turnovers and suddenly corbin forgot that burks has been arguably the best player on the team for like the last 10 games, so corbin yanked him out
Final tally for the memphis game...... burks 16 minutes. Jefferson 36 minutes. Jazz lose.
Way to let burks work through failures after he has been pretty damn good for a big chunk of games.

How was Jefferson playing? How were they fitting with the available lineups?

Burks is getting more minutes than Jefferson. Those minutes shouldn't be guaranteed. When the vets are out-executing, out-working, out-performing the young guys, they should play. This isn't a matter of "working through failures", it's about focus and entitlement. Burks doesn't strike me as the type of player who sulks after being benched. He should be a lot more focused tonight (and Corbin will deserve some of the credit).

 

[GVC]

I can't tell if this is a joke or not. Corbin is terrible with raw, young players. He plays vets over them without rhyme or reason. Nearly every single one if them (outside of Burke) has regressed under his watch. As far as I'm concerned, this whole season is a lost cause. After the year is done I hope that Corbin and most of his staff are gone (I like Brad Jones and Alex Jensen) and the only players I want back are Kanter, Favors, Hayward, Burks, Burke, Gobert, Evans, Garrett, Neto and maybe Clark. Everyone else can go and be replaced by new draft picks. Give me a new coach and some key acquisitions and this team will make a big jump up next year. Won't happen if they don't play together and build chemistry this year, and that's not what Corbin has been doing.

Shocking. Slack-jawed yokel wants team to keep young players, white coaches.

 

[Coach Ellis]

Shocking. Slack-jawed yokel wants team to keep young players, white coaches.

Please. You don't like my opinion, so you resort to asinine name calling. I like those coaches because of their success at the D league level and because I think that they can help with player development under a new coach next year. It has nothing to do with the color of their skin. I do want to keep the young guys and rebuild. That should be the plan. This team needs a full-fledged rebuild. There's no future success for this team with guys like JLIII, Marvin, Jefferson, Rush and/or Biedrins logging big minutes. So why not at least attempt to see what all the young kids can do together?

 

[GVC]

There's no future success for this team with guys like JLIII, Marvin, Jefferson, Rush and/or Biedrins logging big minutes. So why not at least attempt to see what all the young kids can do together?

You realize Favors, Hayward, Burke, Burks and Kanter are the top 5 in minutes per game on the team, right? These players need to learn how to play in the NBA. The young guys have been given plenty of opportunity as primary ball handlers (Trey, Gordo, Alec) and defensive anchors (Favors). The vets know how to take care of themselves, execute and stay focused over an 82 game season. Corbin has handled the young talent extremely well so far this season.

I tend to agree with coaches like George Karl, Jerry Sloan and others that you want to put young players in a position to succeed. If you give a player too much responsibility too early, the player can become overwhelmed, and instead of building step-by-step the skills needed to succeed, finds shortcuts to survive. If you give a player too little responsibility, the player may lose motivation or become stagnant in their development.

 

[Coach Ellis]

You realize Favors, Hayward, Burke, Burks and Kanter are the top 5 in minutes per game on the team, right? These players need to learn how to play in the NBA. The young guys have been given plenty of opportunity as primary ball handlers (Trey, Gordo, Alec) and defensive anchors (Favors). The vets know how to take care of themselves, execute and stay focused over an 82 game season. Corbin has handled the young talent extremely well so far this season.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm fine with him using the vets to support the young players, and I actually happen to like Marvin, Jefferson and JLIII. . . but I don't think that he's played the young core lineup together nearly as much as he should be. He's always relied on vets over young players to a fault and this year has been no different. I just don't see any point in starting Marvin or Jefferson for the rest of the year. Bring them off the bench.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Right now, Kanter doesn't know anything in the offense other than post up, pick and pop, and dribble hand off. Throwing him out there for tons of minutes does GVC said, making Kanter find short cuts to survive. Kanter's a proud guy who hates to lose. When you show him the team is 22 points better with him OFF the court and you say "go get 'em tiger," it shows entitlement and not a ton of motivation to get better.

 

[GVC]

He's always relied on vets over young players to a fault and this year has been no different.

The vets are all playing in complementary roles this season. The young players have been given the ball. I fail to see how he's "relying" on the vets.

I just don't see any point in starting Marvin or Jefferson for the rest of the year. Bring them off the bench.

Corbin is mixing young talent with veteran talent. He's keeping at least one decent ball handler on the bench (Alec). He's using Marvin for spacing because Favors+Kanter has been an unmitigated disaster this season. He's playing lineups that work together, so that all the young players can have ample opportunity/responsibility to be productive and successful. Besides, what difference does it make who starts?

 

[One Brow]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm fine with him using the vets to support the young players, and I actually happen to like Marvin, Jefferson and JLIII. . . but I don't think that he's played the young core lineup together nearly as much as he should be. He's always relied on vets over young players to a fault and this year has been no different. I just don't see any point in starting Marvin or Jefferson for the rest of the year. Bring them off the bench.

If their minutes are behind the young players, why does it matter if they are "bench" minutes?

 

[fishonjazz]

The vets are all playing in complementary roles this season. The young players have been given the ball. I fail to see how he's "relying" on the vets.

Corbin is mixing young talent with veteran talent. He's keeping at least one decent ball handler on the bench (Alec). He's using Marvin for spacing because Favors+Kanter has been an unmitigated disaster this season. He's playing lineups that work together, so that all the young players can have ample opportunity/responsibility to be productive and successful. Besides, what difference does it make who starts?

Good post gvc except for the last sentence.
Players care if they start or not.
I heard on the radio that burks agent was saying burks has been upset that he has not been given the chance to start.

I have heard harpring mention that kanter seems to have a better attitude and is more focused/comfortable in the starting lineup.

 

[da ThRONe]

Good post gvc except for the last sentence.
Players care if they start or not.
I heard on the radio that burks agent was saying burks has been upset that he has not been given the chance to start.

I have heard harpring mention that kanter seems to have a better attitude and is more focused/comfortable in the starting lineup.

I don't get this the young guys should be given every opportunity to prove what they can or can't do this season. As long as the core 5 for you guys are healthy not only should they start, but they should get the bulk of the mins. What is there to gain by playing Williams, Lucas, Jefferson, Rush etc. I would add they need to bring back Gobert from the D-League and play him a bunch. You guys traded away the vets to see what you have in the young core.

Tanking isn't just losing on purpose it's about taking the focus off of wins and losses and placing it on player development. Kanter and Burks should be starting and if it results in 40 striaght losses who cares there's little to no chance you guys make the playoffs, so what's there to gain by winning games featuring people who are over the hill or will be when the core group you look to win big with are in their respective primes.

Lindsey should have made this crystal clear to Corbin coming into the season. If Ty had a problem with it at that point he should have been replaced with a coach that understood the point of this year was to develop and most importantly display the core 5 so the team would know who to keep and who to trade. This just seems like common sense for a franchise in the early stages of a rebuild like this.

 

[GVC]

Players care if they start or not.
I heard on the radio that burks agent was saying burks has been upset that he has not been given the chance to start.

I have heard harpring mention that kanter seems to have a better attitude and is more focused/comfortable in the starting lineup.

So what if players care? Presumably, most players want to take more shots too. These are player flaws. If these guys sulk because they aren't being given exactly what they want when they want it, and are unwilling to prove on the court that they deserve more, it's unlikely they'll develop into much of anything.

Burks would rather start and sit in the corner missing 3s? Counterproductive. Burks has been given the best role possible, given his skillset.

Despite decent box score stats, Kanter was horrible as a starter. Until he learns to execute, he shouldn't be out there with the starters ruining the offense and defense. When he shows he can execute consistently against lesser competition, he'll have some reason to be upset. Folding now is not a good sign.

 

[GVC]

I don't get this the young guys should be given every opportunity to prove what they can or can't do this season. As long as the core 5 for you guys are healthy not only should they start, but they should get the bulk of the mins. What is there to gain by playing Williams, Lucas, Jefferson, Rush etc. I would add they need to bring back Gobert from the D-League and play him a bunch. You guys traded away the vets to see what you have in the young core.

Tanking isn't just losing on purpose it's about taking the focus off of wins and losses and placing it on player development. Kanter and Burks should be starting and if it results in 40 striaght losses who cares there's little to no chance you guys make the playoffs, so what's there to gain by winning games featuring people who are over the hill or will be when the core group you look to win big with are in their respective primes.

Lindsey should have made this crystal clear to Corbin coming into the season. If Ty had a problem with it at that point he should have been replaced with a coach that understood the point of this year was to develop and most importantly display the core 5 so the team would know who to keep and who to trade. This just seems like common sense for a franchise in the early stages of a rebuild like this.

How do you know how a player will perform in a role within a structured offense/defense if you treat the game like pickup ball? These players are being placed in roles to both show what they bring AND develop. Throwing guys out there in roles and lineups that don't make sense, while they flounder and lose, doesn't help in evaluating a player's strengths and weaknesses or in developing that player. It's just plain stupid.

 

[da ThRONe]

How do you know how a player will perform in a role within a structured offense/defense if you treat the game like pickup ball? These players are being placed in roles to both show what they bring AND develop. Throwing guys out there in roles and lineups that don't make sense, while they flounder and lose, doesn't help in evaluating a player's strengths and weaknesses or in developing that player. It's just plain stupid.

What does pick up ball have anything to do with anything? Any good coach should based the offense on his personnel. That's the thing. Your core 5 all have the ability to play the 5 position on the floor. I fail to see how making this year about playing the core 5 together corelates to playing pick up ball? You can't run a 'NBA offense' with a starting line up of
Kanter/Favors/Hayward/Burks/Burke?

 

[franklin]

I can't tell if this is a joke or not. Corbin is terrible with raw, young players. He plays vets over them without rhyme or reason. Nearly every single one if them (outside of Burke) has regressed under his watch. As far as I'm concerned, this whole season is a lost cause. After the year is done I hope that Corbin and most of his staff are gone (I like Brad Jones and Alex Jensen) and the only players I want back are Kanter, Favors, Hayward, Burks, Burke, Gobert, Evans, Garrett, Neto and maybe Clark. Everyone else can go and be replaced by new draft picks. Give me a new coach and some key acquisitions and this team will make a big jump up next year. Won't happen if they don't play together and build chemistry this year, and that's not what Corbin has been doing.

Favors & Hayward have regressed? Burks and Kanter haven't went from nothing to good bench players? I think living under a rock has pressured your head a bit too much.

 

[fishonjazz]

Burks would rather start and sit in the corner missing 3s? Counterproductive. Burks has been given the best role possible, given his skillset.

Where did you get your info that burks wants to sit in the corner and miss 3's if he starts?..... I would let hayward do that and have burks run pick and roll (as he has shown a good ability to do so) and isolations.... let hayward spot up for kickouts like he should along with marvin. Burks and favors run pick and roll while they spread the floor.

How do you know what burks "best role possible" is? Maybe if he started we would find that he is best as a starter but we may never get to find out.

Gvc have you ever told someone "good post" or "that's a good point" or "I agree with that aspect of your statement" when someone sees things differently than you do?

 

[GVC]

What does pick up ball have anything to do with anything? Any good coach should based the offense on his personnel. That's the thing. Your core 5 all have the ability to play the 5 position on the floor. I fail to see how making this year about playing the core 5 together corelates to playing pick up ball? You can't run a 'NBA offense' with a starting line up of
Kanter/Favors/Hayward/Burks/Burke?

You build lineups around complementary talent. The lack of passing, mobility and shooting from Kanter-Favors is tough to work around. Burks is most effective with the ball in his hands, and is not terrific off-ball. At the same time, the coaching staff knows Burke needs the opportunity to create with the ball in his hands, and also wants to give Gordo a shot as well. Gordo also happens to be a better defender and spot-up shooter than Burks. Marvin and Jefferson give you a little more size, mobility and off-ball scoring than Burks and Kanter. Corbin has consistently done a good job matching talent (both this season and in past seasons).

 

[GVC]

Where did you get your info that burks wants to sit in the corner and miss 3's if he starts?..... I would let hayward do that and have burks run pick and roll (as he has shown a good ability to do so) and isolations.... let hayward spot up for kickouts like he should along with marvin. Burks and favors run pick and roll while they spread the floor.

This is an option, sure. It forces Hayward to guard 3s, and takes the ball out of Gordo's and Trey's hands a bit though. It also weakens the bench, as you no longer have anyone who can score off the bounce. Burks is the perfect 6th man on this roster. He can still get his 30+ minutes off the bench AND close games.

How do you know what burks "best role possible" is? Maybe if he started we would find that he is best as a starter but we may never get to find out.

Burks hasn't proven to be efficient enough on-ball or off-ball to be a starting primary ball handler. He's not as good defensively or off-ball as Hayward at the 2. Dude could grow into a prototypical 6th man, and still get 30+ minutes per game. I don't see why this is a problem.

Gvc have you ever told someone "good post" or "that's a good point" or "I agree with that aspect of your statement" when someone sees things differently than you do?

Of course. Presented with a decent argument, I even change my opinion. Unfortunately, the average "PLAY THE YOUNGSTERS 48 MINUTES PER GAME, LOSE AT ALL COSTS, CORBIN IS TO BLAME FOR EVERYTHING EVER" Jazzfanz poster brings little to the table. I'm not going to apologize for my non-participation in the perpetual incestuous circle-jerk on this site.

 

[fishonjazz]

This is an option, sure. It forces Hayward to guard 3s, and takes the ball out of Gordo's and Trey's hands a bit though. It also weakens the bench, as you no longer have anyone who can score off the bounce. Burks is the perfect 6th man on this roster. He can still get his 30+ minutes off the bench AND close games.

Burks hasn't proven to be efficient enough on-ball or off-ball to be a starting primary ball handler. He's not as good defensively or off-ball as Hayward at the 2. Dude could grow into a prototypical 6th man, and still get 30+ minutes per game. I don't see why this is a problem.

Of course. Presented with a decent argument, I even change my opinion. Unfortunately, the average "PLAY THE YOUNGSTERS 48 MINUTES PER GAME, LOSE AT ALL COSTS, CORBIN IS TO BLAME FOR EVERYTHING EVER" Jazzfanz poster brings little to the table.

Good responses.

My bad

 

[[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]]

it isn't true that Burks MUST have the ball in his hands to be effective. and, it isn't true that playing off-the-ball means chucking jumpers.

Burks could be very good as:
1. a guy who works in "catch and scramble" situations
2. a ball handler in secondary PnR situations
(3. his shooting isn't that bad)

The bench has been good for him. But I'd like to see him in the starting lineup.

 

[[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]]

This is an option, sure. It forces Hayward to guard 3s, and takes the ball out of Gordo's and Trey's hands a bit though. It also weakens the bench, as you no longer have anyone who can score off the bounce. Burks is the perfect 6th man on this roster. He can still get his 30+ minutes off the bench AND close games.

Burks hasn't proven to be efficient enough on-ball or off-ball to be a starting primary ball handler. He's not as good defensively or off-ball as Hayward at the 2. Dude could grow into a prototypical 6th man, and still get 30+ minutes per game. I don't see why this is a problem.

Of course. Presented with a decent argument, I even change my opinion. Unfortunately, the average "PLAY THE YOUNGSTERS 48 MINUTES PER GAME, LOSE AT ALL COSTS, CORBIN IS TO BLAME FOR EVERYTHING EVER" Jazzfanz poster brings little to the table. I'm not going to apologize for my non-participation in the perpetual incestuous circle-jerk on this site.

agreed. good post.