George Karl is not super impressed with our roster moves

[GVC]

Despite the all-star appearance in the EC, I'd take Favors right now over Jefferson...I also like the fact Derrick is $4M cheaper per year.

1. Al's never been an all-star.

2. $13.5mm - $12mm = $4mm?

Rumors had them both on the market for a couple of years. I think we can assume bad contracts would have headed our way, which would have prevented the team from being major players in the 2013 free agent market. And we were big players by taking on those GS contracts for picks.

1. I think we can assume that Al and Paul could have been dumped without taking on any "bad" contracts.

2. The Jazz weren't major players in the 2013 OR 2014 free agent market. They weren't even linked to anything resembling a star player.

3. Given 1 and 2 above, the relevant question is whether Al and/or Paul could have been moved for a better return than what the Jazz received in the Golden State deal. The 2014 #23 pick (Hood) and what will likely be a late 1st in 2017 isn't exactly a haul for 2 fringe all-stars.

4. A similar argument applies to DL's misstep in contract extension negotiations with Gordo. To this point, DL has done a poor job of planning for and gauging the value of his assets in the future.

 

[fishonjazz]

1. Al's never been an all-star.

He was not an all star last year? That's a travesty

Edit: just looked it up. No all star game for big al.

 

[cowhide]

Not super impressed by Karl's playoff record.

He has a point with the whole Millsap/Kanter thing doe.

Actually, Neither Millsap or Jefferson were All-stars when they left Utah. I still don't think Al has made an all-star team. I half agree with Karl, the Jazz should have gotten something for them if they weren't in their future plans.

 

[Archie Moses]

George "Harry Henderson" Karl.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

He was not an all star last year? That's a travesty

Edit: just looked it up. No all star game for big al.

Better than All-Star. All NBA 3rd team. Jefferson > Millsap and Booker basically = Millsap anyway. Early this year with the small sample size Booker >>>> Millsap. I don't miss Millsap even a little bit.

 

[Stifle Tower]

^My bad, GVC. You're right, Jefferson was a snub and Millsap was the all-star. for some reason I was thinking AJ had been a replacement on the team. I don;t even watch the AS game anymore as I find it boring as ****. Should have checked my facts.

Also, thanks for the correction on the salaries. That was $1m/yr, so for comparison, $4M over the life of Favors' contract (although I realize Al's contract expires sooner), not 4M per year.

1. I disagree with your statement that Al and Paul could have been dumped without taking on bad contracts. They were on the market for two years. It's not easy to trade huge salaries when you almost always have to take something back to make the trade work. KOC and DL repeatedly said they didn't want to take on long-term salaries. I think we can safely assume the only deals offered may have been for guys who had 2 or more years left. And that's a bad contract unless the player is a near all-star.

2. The Jazz WERE major players in 2013. Did they land Iggy or Mayo or someone else like that? No. But there were rumors about Mayo, they were negotiating with (or at least talking to) Millsap's agent until the GS deal went down. I think it was after seeing the exorbitant contracts being tossed around DL decided value wasn't there. But they did spend half their cap on FA's. I'd classify that as being a player. Maybe they didn't spend it on the big name players you may have wanted, but they were major players in free agency, acquiring assets and facilitating some moves by others.

3. Yes, you can argue the picks weren't a good return. But would bringing in a guy like Rip Hamilton + a 2nd have been better? The Jazz wanted financial freedom. They got that. They also wanted to rebuild. The 3 players they received didn't really improve the team, which I would say was a HUGE consideration in making the deal. They got to the floor, picked up additional picks, and ensured they'd have a good chance at a top-5 pick. Get veterans for Paul and/or Al who had multiple years left and I think the Jazz are looking at a pick in the 13-14 range at best (assuming they miss the playoffs) or a pick around 18th (if they make the playoffs).

4. C'mon, this is really revisionist history. Perhaps you suggested the Jazz should just give in to Gordon's demands and pay him $48M. If so, I apologize. I remember most saying his value was around $8M (if not lower). We all misjudged Charlotte giving him that offer. Gordon got lucky. The Jazz thought it would be more like what happened to Bledsoe in Phoenix, where no one stepped forward because they knew Phoenix would match. Kudos to Gordon. And yes, shame on Dennis Lindsey for not getting a notarized affidavit from Charlotte stating their intention to overpay for Hayward.

 

[NAOS]

Better than All-Star. All NBA 3rd team. Jefferson > Millsap and Booker basically = Millsap anyway. Early this year with the small sample size Booker >>>> Millsap. I don't miss Millsap even a little bit.

LOL. Try watching a Hawks game, bru.

 

[seattlejazzfan]

LOL. Try watching a Hawks game, bru.

That's the problem - I've watched too many.

 

[franklin]

Are people still making excuses for when they said in rabid tones that Kanter was better than Jefferson and Favors better than Millsap?

 

[NAOS]

That's the problem - I've watched too many.

Oh. I see ... ... you have other problems.

 

[slc]

Jazz with Jefferson and Millsap would be just an average playoff team.
Bobcats and Hawks are also just average with Jefferson and Millsap.
Jazz made some calculated moves to attempt to jump to next level.
Had to take the risk.

 

[GVC]

3. Yes, you can argue the picks weren't a good return. But would bringing in a guy like Rip Hamilton + a 2nd have been better? The Jazz wanted financial freedom. They got that. They also wanted to rebuild. The 3 players they received didn't really improve the team, which I would say was a HUGE consideration in making the deal. They got to the floor, picked up additional picks, and ensured they'd have a good chance at a top-5 pick. Get veterans for Paul and/or Al who had multiple years left and I think the Jazz are looking at a pick in the 13-14 range at best (assuming they miss the playoffs) or a pick around 18th (if they make the playoffs).

I simply don't buy that there weren't teams out there that were willing to give up better assets than 2 late 1st for Paul and/or Al. I'd guess there were teams with big enough expiring contracts that would have been open to making a deal, but I haven't looked at rosters/salaries. I see no reason to take DL at his word here. Even for non-contenders Paul and Al's Bird rights may have been valuable.

4. C'mon, this is really revisionist history. Perhaps you suggested the Jazz should just give in to Gordon's demands and pay him $48M. If so, I apologize. I remember most saying his value was around $8M (if not lower). We all misjudged Charlotte giving him that offer. Gordon got lucky. The Jazz thought it would be more like what happened to Bledsoe in Phoenix, where no one stepped forward because they knew Phoenix would match. Kudos to Gordon. And yes, shame on Dennis Lindsey for not getting a notarized affidavit from Charlotte stating their intention to overpay for Hayward.

It represents a trend. DL has been conservative/reactionary when it comes to decisions about his own players.

 

[Deleted member 848]

it was the right decision to clear them both out. Gave us an idea of what we had with our young talent.

By mid-season, we'll know what we have with Kanter. Favors is a huge asset for this team-- wouldn't trade him for Millsap, no way in hell. Dude is 23 and he's only beginning to scrape the surface of his potential.

Trade Kanter if he sucks, see how Booker does, and go for Millsap if the Booker experiment proves to be meh.

If Booker provides an awesome role as 3rd big next to Gobert and Favors, then save money to either go after an all-star PG if our PG prospects bust, or move one of Hayward or Burks, and sign an all-star calibre SF.

Man. We actually have so much depth on this team. We are literally one player taking 'the next step' away from being a playoff team. Hopefully it's Exum. Him being an all-star, with Favors, Hayward, Burks, and Gobert to round things off? Top 6 seed WCF.

 

[Stifle Tower]

I simply don't buy that there weren't teams out there that were willing to give up better assets than 2 late 1st for Paul and/or Al. I'd guess there were teams with big enough expiring contracts that would have been open to making a deal, but I haven't looked at rosters/salaries. I see no reason to take DL at his word here. Even for non-contenders Paul and Al's Bird rights may have been valuable.

It represents a trend. DL has been conservative/reactionary when it comes to decisions about his own players.

I actually did look at all 29 other teams and what contracts would fit (and tried several on the ESPN trade machine). There were only a couple of viable options which were discussed in depth on this board. And most came down to why would the other team even consider it? Al and Paul's Bird rights weren't valuable. Those didn't come into play in their new contracts. Sorry, but there just weren't contracts to match. I may go back and see if I still have the list I posted.

DL is conservative? Now I'm laughing. The conservative model, which was espoused by KOC and Greg Miller was to re-sign Millsap, DMC and Foye (I think Mo and Big AL had played themselves out of consideration) and compete for the playoffs as the 7th/8th seed. DL has been the polar opposite, arguing for a rebuild "without skipping steps." DL has been aggressive in re-signing Favors and Burks ahead of free agency. Gordon felt like it would be better to test the market. I GUARANTEE you Lindsey would have been RIPPED TO SHREDS had Hayward signed a deal last October for 4/$48M. 99% of people (apparently excluding you) would have said the Jazz were overpaying a slow, weak, poor-shooting, 4th option who hadn't shown he could be any kind of a team leader. So he goes out, has an even worse season and Charlotte offers him the max. You'd have to be either Marty McFly or the Charlotte GM to see that coming.

 

[cowhide]

I didn't want Millsap to leave. He was one of my favorite players but I also wanted the rebuild to start and that wasn't going to happen with Paul and Al here. I don't think either wanted to be part of a rebuild. I just thought the Jazz should have started the rebuild earlier and traded Millsap or AJ prior to their last year when they had more value. Without them leaving the Jazz had no chance of getting a top 5 pick, in my opinion getting Exum and Hood makes up for not getting anything for them. The cap space also allows us to keep more of our young players.

 

[LogGrad98]

I simply don't buy that there weren't teams out there that were willing to give up better assets than 2 late 1st for Paul and/or Al. I'd guess there were teams with big enough expiring contracts that would have been open to making a deal, but I haven't looked at rosters/salaries. I see no reason to take DL at his word here. Even for non-contenders Paul and Al's Bird rights may have been valuable.

It represents a trend. DL has been conservative/reactionary when it comes to decisions about his own players.

I see where you are going with this, and while I do not disagree outright, I have to assume that we had those types of discussions and they simply did not bear fruit. I think that is more reasonable than assuming that the entire year, and more, before the contracts expired DL was doing nothing at all to move them for some gain. To me is says he tried and nothing was coming back that was worth whatever they might have been asked to give up.

 

[silesian]

But the Jazz may have lucked out by getting Booker. He could become as good or even better than Millsap, who is almost three years older than Booker. Probably will come close but not quite up to Millsap.

Targeting and signing a talented free agent is lucky?

 

[silesian]

1. Al's never been an all-star.

While technically true, this is in reality a quibble. As 3rd team all NBA he is in this category, had a better year than AllStar Bosh and would have been chosen if they had not merged PF and C.

 

[fishonjazz]

it was the right decision to clear them both out. Gave us an idea of what we had with our young talent.

By mid-season, we'll know what we have with Kanter. Favors is a huge asset for this team-- wouldn't trade him for Millsap, no way in hell. Dude is 23 and he's only beginning to scrape the surface of his potential.

Trade Kanter if he sucks, see how Booker does, and go for Millsap if the Booker experiment proves to be meh.

If Booker provides an awesome role as 3rd big next to Gobert and Favors, then save money to either go after an all-star PG if our PG prospects bust, or move one of Hayward or Burks, and sign an all-star calibre SF.

Man. We actually have so much depth on this team. We are literally one player taking 'the next step' away from being a playoff team. Hopefully it's Exum. Him being an all-star, with Favors, Hayward, Burks, and Gobert to round things off? Top 6 seed WCF.

Love it

 

[Stifle Tower]

it was the right decision to clear them both out. Gave us an idea of what we had with our young talent.

By mid-season, we'll know what we have with Kanter. Favors is a huge asset for this team-- wouldn't trade him for Millsap, no way in hell. Dude is 23 and he's only beginning to scrape the surface of his potential.

Trade Kanter if he sucks, see how Booker does, and go for Millsap if the Booker experiment proves to be meh.

If Booker provides an awesome role as 3rd big next to Gobert and Favors, then save money to either go after an all-star PG if our PG prospects bust, or move one of Hayward or Burks, and sign an all-star calibre SF.

Man. We actually have so much depth on this team. We are literally one player taking 'the next step' away from being a playoff team. Hopefully it's Exum. Him being an all-star, with Favors, Hayward, Burks, and Gobert to round things off? Top 6 seed WCF.

I'd say we're likely two players away from having our core. Certainly Exum or Hood could bust, but I've seen enough not to worry about either.

1. Wings are now set with Hayward, Burks and Hood. Ingles, although not a "core" player, gives Utah a veteran presence (I know, technically an NBA rookie, but he has all that int'l experience).

2. Bigs: Favors, Gobert and Booker. I see both Gobert and Booker as super subs. IMO, Jazz need a starting stretch-4 to pair with Favors. Not saying Booker can't be that guy, but if Utah could upgrade and have that kind of talent off the bench...WOW! I know, I've counted Kanter out.

3. Exum will be our PG of the future. I'm not sold at all on Burke.

So a starting 4, backup PG, and development of Exum and Hood.