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Gordon VS. Vonleh

Who do you pick out of these two?

  • Aaron Gordon

    Votes: 35 60.3%

  • Noah Vonleh

    Votes: 23 39.7%
  • Total voters
    58
Thee jazz fan said:
First I agree that you can't compare Gordon to KF, but that also can't compare Gordon to Grifin either. They are pf's. Gordon is a stretch4 that can't shoot, at least KF can guard bigger or smaller players, Gordon is too small, but I can see similar production which isn't worth the fith pick.


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Gordon is not a stretch 4. He is a wing who has the body , height, measurements, speed, hops, hips, knees, feet, etc to gaurd positions 1-4. Saying he can't shoot is not accurate. He can't shoot FT's at this stage.

I agree that you the Griffin comparison isn't the most accurate, but it is one that has come from a lot of well respected scouts. It comes from the ridiculous athleticism, dunks, that they both have. A. Gordon, IMO is a better prospect because of his better ball handling, defense, athleticism, etc. both struggled with FT's, but Griffin has since figured it out. Griffin played on a less established college team that featured him more in college.
 
Thee jazz fan said:
You say you don't believe in giving comps, but that's exactly what you are doing with Gordon, and using them to prove your points. All you've done with this post is lose all respect and credibility with me on this topic, and there is no way Gordon compares to Grifin! They don't even play the same position! End thread!!


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I don't believe in them, but YOU and others insisted on them. Don't change the rules.
 
Sexual Favors said:
And lickily for me, my perspective is shared by a lot of NBA scouts.

You just made a bad comp, don't get salty.
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Dude- you make bad comps and super inflate players worth multiple times a day. Like I told you before you can kick and scream at an attempt to make your point more valid than another's, but it won't get you far. He is so much more KF than you give him credit for. .....waiting for kicking and screaming to commence.
 
Thee jazz fan said:
Oh, and your the one that has dictated the rules and path of this topic bringing up the comps, all I've done is refute them and taken you to school.


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Actually, no.

Catchell called him Corey Brewer
Vermin called him K. Faried
PG_AB called him MKG
Jazz4Ever called him Chris Singleton

Those comps came from others, this starting the discussion on comps.

And, no, you haven't made me look stupid. You haven't posted any facts, links, or data. You've just hopped on the bandwagon of others and tried changing the flow of he debate to suit your needs. If you don't think so, maybe you should read back a couple of pages.
 
Is he the next Shawn kemp? I want to keep the comparisons coming. What's his PPG ceiling? Reb? Like I said I like Gordon, I'm just not convinced he is the 5th pick in this draft....at all. If we trade back and acquired more assets I could be convinced depending on who passed over.
 
Sexual Favors said:
Actually, no.

Catchell called him Corey Brewer
Vermin called him K. Faried
PG_AB called him MKG
Jazz4Ever called him Chris Singleton

Those comps came from others, this starting the discussion on comps.

And, no, you haven't made me look stupid. You haven't posted any facts, links, or data. You've just hopped on the bandwagon of others and tried changing the flow of he debate to suit your needs. If you don't think so, maybe you should read back a couple of pages.
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Lol. Then you said they were bad comps, then made your own bad comps, then I refuted them, you got nervous and said you don't believe in comps, so yes, you are the one who changed the rules, I'm just following where you took the topic and made you look stupid.


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Thee jazz fan said:
Lol. Then you said they were bad comps, then made your own bad comps, then I refuted them, you got nervous and said you don't believe in comps, so yes, you are the one who changed the rules, I'm just following where you took the topic and made you look stupid.


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I can see why you would think that, but I don't believe in comps.
As already pointed out, the comp discussion first came from four other posters. I have the right to refute a bad comp when I believe they paint a player in an unfairly negative light.

Those comps you think I made are not my comps BTW. They are from draftexpress, nbadraft.net, chad ford, and david locke (realize he is not the best evaluator).

Posting your opinion isn't making me, or rather those who first created these comps look stupid. Your opinion is your opinion. Try adding some data and facts to your opinions if you want to disagree with the hypotheses of established talent evaluators.

Once again. I don't like comps for anyone. But, why should that preclude me from discussing them when it is the mode of argument that has already been established?


I would be very happy if A. Gordon's floor was a healthy AK. But, I don't think it is accurate. A. Gordon is a unique person, and the master of his own basketball destiny. I'd rather discuss his skillset, age, body type, etc.
 
Sexual Favors said:
I can see why you would think that, but I don't believe in comps.
As already pointed out, the comp discussion first came from four other posters. I have the right to refute a bad comp when I believe they paint a player in an unfairly negative light.

Those comps you think I made are not my comps BTW. They are from draftexpress, nbadraft.net, chad ford, and david locke (realize he is not the best evaluator).

Posting your opinion isn't making me, or rather those who first created these comps look stupid. Your opinion is your opinion. Try adding some data and facts to your opinions if you want to disagree with the hypotheses of established talent evaluators.

Once again. I don't like comps for anyone. But, why should that preclude me from discussing them when it is the mode of argument that has already been established?


I would be very happy if A. Gordon's floor was a healthy AK. But, I don't think it is accurate. A. Gordon is a unique person, and the master of his own basketball destiny. I'd rather discuss his skillset, age, body type, etc.
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Ok. Let's discuss his offense or his ft shooting or how he will defend bigger 4's or the way defenders will sag off and close down the paint. Can we discuss some of those skill sets, and things he will bring to the game.


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Anyone compared Gordon to Evans yet? Both are super athletic and great on dunks and great defensively. Over the years Evans has added an outside jumper.
Evans often plays the 4 for the Jazz, yes? Against backups for the most part, yes? Now that he has a jumpshot he might be able to play the 3 more. ...don't get me wrong, I like Gordon, but I like Evans too - for similar reasons. I dunno, maybe Gordon is the bpa at 5 but if so then it's not by much.

I don't know - does anyone else see the Evans comp? Maybe Evans/Blake Griffin mix (or Griffin-lite).
 
Sexual Favors said:
I can see why you would think that, but I don't believe in comps.
As already pointed out, the comp discussion first came from four other posters. I have the right to refute a bad comp when I believe they paint a player in an unfairly negative light.

Those comps you think I made are not my comps BTW. They are from draftexpress, nbadraft.net, chad ford, and david locke (realize he is not the best evaluator).

Posting your opinion isn't making me, or rather those who first created these comps look stupid. Your opinion is your opinion. Try adding some data and facts to your opinions if you want to disagree with the hypotheses of established talent evaluators.

Once again. I don't like comps for anyone. But, why should that preclude me from discussing them when it is the mode of argument that has already been established?


I would be very happy if A. Gordon's floor was a healthy AK. But, I don't think it is accurate. A. Gordon is a unique person, and the master of his own basketball destiny. I'd rather discuss his skillset, age, body type, etc.
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And you saying you bright up your own comps because others did is very weak minded thing to do after saying you don't like comparing others. You never should've brought up the comps you did regardless of whether they were yours or someone else came up with them.


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Thee jazz fan said:
And you saying you bright up your own comps because others did is very weak minded thing to do after saying you don't like comparing others. You never should've brought up the comps you did regardless of whether they were yours or someone else came up with them.


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Makes you look like an idiot.


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Thee jazz fan said:
And you saying you bright up your own comps because others did is very weak minded thing to do after saying you don't like comparing others. You never should've brought up the comps you did regardless of whether they were yours or someone else came up with them.


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But, as I've already pointed out. We were discussing comps. To refute the obviously bad ones, I referenced the industry standard ones, which if anything, are more valuable. I can not like comps, and still be able to determine why one is better than the other from the existing data we have on a player.
 
Thee jazz fan said:
Ok. Let's discuss his offense or his ft shooting or how he will defend bigger 4's or the way defenders will sag off and close down the paint. Can we discuss some of those skill sets, and things he will bring to the game.


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Ok.

His offense:

Plays uptempo. We are in altitude, with runners, yet were slow because RJ, and Corbin.
Has elite handles for his size
Is an elite passer for his size
Amazing in open floor.
Excels on the offensive glass, getting easy putbacks
Is an elite slasher and curler
Is an elite finisher at the rim, even through traffic
Has a decent finger roll.
Shot 36% from 3 on only 1.2 attempts per game
Has a solid looking form in his shot. I think he needs more reps.
Struggles mightily with FT's, but so have other young athletic players with his size.
49.5 FG%
The added NBA floor space makes it easier for athletes of his caliber, not harder.


As for defending bigger 4's:

Don't see why he would need to. He is better suited as an SF.
But if you wanted him to:

He stands just shy of 6'9" in shoes, which is only an " shorter than Favors
Is more athletic, by far, (check his games and combine tests) than any PF in the game today.
Has a good wingspan
Has defensive instincts. Rarely out of position.
Quick feet and explosive vert.
He is 220lbs, so not super thick, but far from wirey. He is built, and will grow.

Anyways, he projects better as an sf.

defenders sagging off and closing down paint

Per locker cleanout, Kanter will be shooting 3's, thus will be drawing away a rim protector from the paint.
At 6'9", and w/ his athleticism, there are few Players he couldn't finish over.
He isn't devoid of a jumpshot.




The real legitimate knock on Gordon is his FT's, but I am optimistic he will figure it out. For being 18, and truly elite in so many areas, I tend to think that some area of his game has to be flawed. If he was draining FT's, he'd probably be in talks for the top 4 spots in this draft. With his shooting form looking good, and when considering how much time he has spent perfecting other areas of his game, I think the FT's will come in time with more reps. All accounts have him pegged as one of the hardest workers in this draft.
 
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BENTLEY said:
Anyone compared Gordon to Evans yet? Both are super athletic and great on dunks and great defensively. Over the years Evans has added an outside jumper.
Evans often plays the 4 for the Jazz, yes? Against backups for the most part, yes? Now that he has a jumpshot he might be able to play the 3 more. ...don't get me wrong, I like Gordon, but I like Evans too - for similar reasons. I dunno, maybe Gordon is the bpa at 5 but if so then it's not by much.

I don't know - does anyone else see the Evans comp? Maybe Evans/Blake Griffin mix (or Griffin-lite).
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Couple things:

Jeremy is a PF. He doesn't have hips or lateral quickness to play SF.

A. Gordon is 30 lbs of solid muscle heavier.

Jeremy doesn't play great D. He is too skinny for PF, and too laterally slow for SF. Great jumper though.

A. Gordon is 8 yrs younger.

A. Gordon can slash and curl, and pass the ball.

Jeremy Evans has absolutely zero handles. A. Gordon is elite for position.
 
haha Sexual Favors is a bit delusional. great stuff, care to predict Aaron Gordons rookie stats??

patting youself on the back about refuting the MKG comparison is just beyond absurd, i already pointed out a list of basic stats from their freshman years that are identical.

both are 18 at the time of the draft, and we're talked about about as top 5 players coming out of HS and going into the draft, similar positional (both played 3 and 4 in college) and shooting questions surround both players

similar reputations for "intangibles", lockdown defense and for being above average rebounders, both are dynamic in transition but not so much in halfcourt offense.

Kidd-Gilchrist has an excellent feel for the game, which shows up in the way he moves intelligently without the ball, as well as with his passing skills, which are very well developed considering his age.
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- from a dx scouting report before the draft. that sounds like whats said about Gordon, no?

SF said completely different bodies completely different skills, id disagree on both counts

Aaron Gordon's standing reach 8'9" MKG's 8'8½", Wingspans are within ¼", MKG's 12 lbs heavier, similar sized hands

im sure in your estimation Gordon is a much better athlete but the difference is certainly marginal by almost all measurables, for all the faults of MKG's first few years hes certainly had some monster dunks. combine testing showed Gordon has slightly more vertical and better lane agility time but MKG sprinted faster. Gordon touched 12' MKG touched 11'8"... that might be the biggest separation in their combine data

your main points are a 2" height difference, i see only a 1¼" difference in shoes, which is what basketball is played in. a turnover ratio that hasn't translated into an issue for MKG in the pros', and 3point shooting based on 45 attempts without ofcourse acknowledging him shooting 3/17 in 18 conference games, also MKG conference 3pt shooting 2/16... yet another similarity

im sure even you will conceed MKG is a better free throw shooter, right? overall im seeing alot of similarities here... enlighten me on how they are completely different, im not seeing it
 
And if we look at MKGs progress, he is getting worse as an NBA player, not better. Teams are focusing on his lack of shooting and making him irrelevant. Was MKG not touted as a great kid and incredible worker coming into the NBA? He would solve his problems because of those traits. Well it hasn't worked out that way.
 
What is it with qualifying Gordon's three point shooting with "during the conference play?" That is such BS. He only took 21 3 pointers during conference play. A three point shooter in college takes that many in about 3 games. A better way to put it would be, "After Ashley was injured and Gordon was forced to play out of position, he became less of a three point threat." Because, Arizona didn't really need Gordon out on the parameter as the power forward when he was such a dominant offensive rebounder. If Gordon was launching from deep post Ashley injury you can bet the play was broken, because it wasn't drawn up that way. With Ashley down low, Gordon's 3 point percentage was pretty darn respectable, good even (at around 46%) You don't hit the kick out, feet set 3 pointer at 46% as a terrible shooter. I guess you can fault him for not being able to create his shot better at the three point line but he was actually doing EVERY DAMN OTHER THING needed to win games, including an ad-hoc running post game that the coach had never meant for him to play before the injury. Gordon was never meant to be the primary focus of the Arizona team. He was supposed to contribute behind McConnel and Johnson. He took that job with the way he played, something Vonleh could never do on a poor team. If you can't come in and impose your will and be the man on a poor college team, how in the world are to expect such a guy to become the alpha on the Utah Jazz? Gordon became the Alpha on a team that had big aspirations even without him.
Also FWIW, I talk to many UofA boosters and insiders. They all say that Gordon hits FT in the mid to high 70's in practice. His performance in games is entirely mental, and can be fixed.
 
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