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Hardy Says Keyonte Has a Chance to be a Star

KqWIN said:
Here are the craftednba comparisons for players 2013 and beyond:
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Yeah, the limitations of the automated comparisons are pretty evident here: a lot of the comps for Keyonte are really strong dudes who use their strength on both ends. Keyonte is pretty light and has to build his game around it.
 
fishonjazz said:
I do understand. They are very heavily related though. Like if someone is a poor field goal shooter and a poor three point shooter then their efficiency typically won't be good either.

Usually to be an efficient scorer your shooting has to be at least decent. Rarely will an efficient scorer have horrendous field goal percentage (under 40% in this case)

See what I'm saying? His horrendous shooting is an issue. As is his efficiency. If his shooting improves a lot and is no longer an issue then it's likely that his efficiency will also improve a lot and will not be an issue either.

Efficiency and shooting (field goal% along with 3 point%) can often be interchangeable terms (though not always)

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If someone shot 100% of their field goals from 3, then a 40%fg% would be an elite shooter. You can slide the scale however you would like, but this is kind of the whole point and why we have numbers like efg% and ts% that should always be used when comparing efficiency. I suppose if you have the fg%, 3pt fg%, and %fga from 3, then you could compare, but it's just so much more simple to use efg% or ts%, that I'm not sure why anyone would do anything different.

Again, not trying to be a dick, but your responses make me unsure if you get it. There really isn't a good reason to use fg% that I can think of.
 
SoberasHotRod said:
If someone shot 100% of their field goals from 3, then a 40%fg% would be an elite shooter. You can slide the scale however you would like, but this is kind of the whole point and why we have numbers like efg% and ts% that should always be used when comparing efficiency. I suppose if you have the fg%, 3pt fg%, and %fga from 3, then you could compare, but it's just so much more simple to use efg% or ts%, that I'm not sure why anyone would do anything different.

Again, not trying to be a dick, but your responses make me unsure if you get it. There really isn't a good reason to use fg% that I can think of.
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Exactly.
I guess find me a list of players in the upper end of the league in efficiency who also shoot less than 40% from the field.
When you shoot that poorly from the field then your 3 point volume and percentage and free throw rate and percentage etc have to be so insanely high to get you to be an efficient scorer that it's basically impossible.

Go ahead and use ts% and efg% and any other metric you want to create a list of players that are on the upper end of your metric (whatever metric you choose) that also are below 40% from the field.

You are focusing on "from the field" too much which is causing you to miss the point I'm making in regards to keyonte George.

Keyonte needs to be a better shooter and more efficient scorer. Is that statement ok?

His field goal percentage, though not the only factor and not the end all be all to everything, contributes to his overall scoring efficiency in a negative way.

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fishonjazz said:
Exactly.
I guess find me a list of players in the upper end of the league in efficiency who also shoot less than 40% from the field.
When you shoot that poorly from the field then your 3 point volume and percentage and free throw rate and percentage etc have to be so insanely high to get you to be an efficient scorer that it's basically impossible.

Go ahead and use ts% and efg% and any other metric you want to create a list of players that are on the upper end of your metric (whatever metric you choose) that also are below 40% from the field.

You are focusing on "from the field" too much which is causing you to miss the point I'm making in regards to keyonte George.

Keyonte needs to be a better shooter and more efficient scorer. Is that statement ok?

His field goal percentage, though not the only factor and not the end all be all to everything, contributes to his overall scoring efficiency in a negative way.

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Dude their point is field goal % is a bad measuring stick for those who shoot a lot of 3s. Here is an example:

The greatest shooter of all time, Stephen Curry, has only had a FG over 50% once in his career.

Last year his fg% was 45.0. His efg% on the other hand was 57.3.

Do not use fg% to measure efficiency.
 
HermanG said:
Dude their point is field goal % is a bad measuring stick for those who shoot a lot of 3s. Here is an example:

The greatest shooter of all time, Stephen Curry, has only had a FG over 50% once in his career.

Last year his fg% was 45.0. His efg% on the other hand was 57.3.

Do not use fg% to measure efficiency.
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You just provided some stats for Curry but none of them have him shooting under 40% from the field. Find me a player with a great efg% who also shoots under 40% from the field.

I'm saying that keyonte shooting under 40% from the field is a problem.

We will just have to agree to disagree I guess.

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fishonjazz said:
You just provided some stats for Curry but none of them have him shooting under 40% from the field. Find me a player with a great efg% who also shoots under 40% from the field.

I'm saying that keyonte shooting under 40% from the field is a problem.

We will just have to agree to disagree I guess.

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Fish just use eFG%, lol.
 
MT Steve said:
Fish just use eFG%, lol.
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Fine.
Keyontes efg of 48% is a weakness.
An eFG% of 51% or higher is decent, while anything below 50% is subpar.

Hopefully that will allow folks to move on. Lol

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fishonjazz said:
I think inefficiency is another clear issue in addition to his defense.

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Or we could have just went with this.
Which was my first post on the topic.

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fishonjazz said:
You just provided some stats for Curry but none of them have him shooting under 40% from the field. Find me a player with a great efg% who also shoots under 40% from the field.

I'm saying that keyonte shooting under 40% from the field is a problem.

We will just have to agree to disagree I guess.

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Fred Vanvleet averages 40.4 from the field in his career, with 3 of his years being sub 40 (rookie year 35.1%).

His average efg% is over 50 though.
 
HermanG said:
Fred Vanvleet averages 40.4 from the field in his career, with 3 of his years being sub 40 (rookie year 35.1%).

His average efg% is over 50 though.
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That is cute but i was talking about keyonte george's 39%. Fred vanfleet did shoot 39% from the field twice in his career. And both times he had an inefficient EFG.

It seems to bear out that anytime in nba history that a person shoots 39% from the field like keyonte did last season (even worse in college), that person also has an inefficient EFG% as well.
 
The point is, you cant judge a rookie season that harshly, especially with one thrown in the fire like Keyonte was. Hand-wringing over his poor efficiency season is ridiculous. It's not a concern unless he repeats it. It's different from the defense he showed (or didnt show).
 
FWIW keyonte george was 139th in the nba last season in field goal percentage.
He was 138th in the nba in EFG%. There just might be a teensy tiny bit of correlation between the two.

Clarkson was 137th and 139th lol. We had 2 of the least efficient players in the league last year and both seemed to be adored by the coaching staff (relative to getting minutes anyways. Maybe they were tanking harder than I though all along)

(scoot henderson was 140th in both. Dead last lol.)
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
The point is, you cant judge a rookie season that harshly, especially with one thrown in the fire like Keyonte was. Hand-wringing over his poor efficiency season is ridiculous. It's not a concern unless he repeats it. It's different from the defense he showed (or didnt show).
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Agreed. As i said before, he has all the tools. I expect his efficiency go up a lot as he gets more experience. But until it does, its an issue.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
It's not an issue until it doesnt go up.
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Ya last year we weren't really trying to win so it didn't matter. If we are trying to win and he is that inefficient then it will be an issue. It mattered to baylor for instance. We agree.
 
fishonjazz said:
Ya last year we weren't really trying to win so it didn't matter. If we are trying to win and he is that inefficient then it will be an issue. It mattered to baylor for instance. We agree.
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You may agree with me idk, I'm not you. I do not agree with you though. Framing does matter. I dont care about rookie season inefficiency unless it's repeated in the 2nd season without any improvement.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
You may agree with me idk, I'm not you. I do not agree with you though. Framing does matter. I dont care about rookie season inefficiency unless it's repeated in the 2nd season without any improvement.
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I do agree with you about last year. Last season his inefficiency didn't matter.
I actually don't think it matters much next year though either since I want to lose as much as possible for a high pick.
His inefficiency won't matter to me until we are trying to win games

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fishonjazz said:
I do agree with you about last year. Last season his inefficiency didn't matter.
I actually don't think it matters much next year though either since I want to lose as much as possible for a high pick.
His inefficiency won't matter to me until we are trying to win games

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Well that's pretty stupid to say. Of course you want Keyonte to improve and be as good as he can. If he repeated his efficiency from his rookie year that would be awful, even if it helped the Jazz lose. I'd rather win 3 more games and be confident Keyonte is a future starter than lose 3 more games and have to worry if Keyonte will ever be a starting level player.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
Well that's pretty stupid to say. Of course you want Keyonte to improve and be as good as he can. If he repeated his efficiency from his rookie year that would be awful, even if it helped the Jazz lose. I'd rather win 3 more games and be confident Keyonte is a future starter than lose 3 more games and have to worry if Keyonte will ever be a starting level player.
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Eh, depends on how year 3 goes. If he sucks next season and we get flagg and then he is an all star in season 3 then im cool with that outcome.

Hell, if he sucks next year and is never good for his entire career but we get an MVP caliber player in the draft due to his poor play next season then I'm cool with that outcome too.

Whatever is best for the jazz is what I want (including keyonte balling out next season and becoming a star eventually. That just seems less likely to me than Flagg being a star)
 
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