sahlensguy
Well-Known Member
During the time out in crunch time, Hayward wasn't even standing front and center as the play was being drawn up. He was in the back looking away. The play was going to him or through him. What was up with that?
Hayward in Crunch Time
- Thread starter akirac73
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Deleted member 848
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While that could be argued, I don't think it goes against anything I said.
I can respect that-- as it is a good gamble, but I'm not sure I see George ever being a good isolation player. To me, that inhibits him from being a formidable #1 option, and therefore deserving of a max contract.
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Hantlers
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Then I would have to disagree with you on what qualifies a player on being deserving of a max contract. For example, Andrei Kirilenko was never a good isolation player, but if he had managed to continuously reproduce the season that led to him getting his max contract, he would have been worth it.
Please. Don't expect me to read 7 pages of this garbage. I just pick random quotes and go at it.
D
Deleted member 848
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If him being the first option resulted the Jazz in having a top 20 offense, then I could agree with you. As we can tell, this has not been the case with George. I pointed out the hole in his ISO-game, but it could be more than that. George does not possess the court-vision that AK did.
Lol, good on ya in that case.
Litany
Well-Known Member
Obviously wasn't clear. I never said he averaged that. I said he had those outings, which he did in several games. Some of the games weren't good. But some games he dominated and had those outings.
fishonjazz
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fishonjazz
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I actually kind of agree
I searched and searched the forum looking for a thread that maybe touched on Hayward's ability in the 4th quarter. This was the most topical I could find.
First, I come from a position of being incredibly thankful that we have a player like Hayward on the team. The dude is supremely talented, consistently getting better year after year and his on court smarts are top notch. It's hard to ask for more in a player.
That being said, Hayward doesn't pass the smell test for me. And what I mean by that is that if I'm just going off of feel and expectation, he always seems to wither when the game is on the line. While there are no absolutes and I realize that he was hit some incredibly "clutch" shots for the team, most of the time, I have no confidence in him when the game is on the line and a timely shot is needed to put the team over the hump. Last night was a prime example of his signature withering. He had a monster game but when it counter he was meh. That's just going off of feel and not any sort of empirical evidence found in the stats.
So, it brings me to my question, are there any stat sites that sort via quarters or shows how a player performs in a specific quarter and maybe in the last few minutes of the game? Has anyone here on the board taken a look at this stuff?
Im really interested to know.
Personally speaking, players that pass the smell test for me and I feel they are going to make the shot are both Joes...any maybe a little bit of Hood.
What say you?
First, I come from a position of being incredibly thankful that we have a player like Hayward on the team. The dude is supremely talented, consistently getting better year after year and his on court smarts are top notch. It's hard to ask for more in a player.
That being said, Hayward doesn't pass the smell test for me. And what I mean by that is that if I'm just going off of feel and expectation, he always seems to wither when the game is on the line. While there are no absolutes and I realize that he was hit some incredibly "clutch" shots for the team, most of the time, I have no confidence in him when the game is on the line and a timely shot is needed to put the team over the hump. Last night was a prime example of his signature withering. He had a monster game but when it counter he was meh. That's just going off of feel and not any sort of empirical evidence found in the stats.
So, it brings me to my question, are there any stat sites that sort via quarters or shows how a player performs in a specific quarter and maybe in the last few minutes of the game? Has anyone here on the board taken a look at this stuff?
Im really interested to know.
Personally speaking, players that pass the smell test for me and I feel they are going to make the shot are both Joes...any maybe a little bit of Hood.
What say you?
Hayward was one of the better players in the clutch last year (elite in the final minutes of close games). This year he hasn't been great. Further, if you look at his average shot distance and average shot distance made, you can tell he is shooting a larger percentage of his attempts farther away form the rim. He also was assisted on his makes much less last year and got a higher percentage of his shots blocked. All that tells me he was probably taking the ball to the rim in his clutch minutes last year more so than this year. That would explain the drop in percentages even though he is getting an uptick on assisted FGM. That tells me his quality of shot is probably higher this year. From my memory I remember last year he really made a lot of difficult fadeaway/stepbacks/turnarounds in the 10'-15' range that he seems to be doing less of now that he is more focused on efficiency in the Jazz's improved offensive ball-movement. With all of that I would conclude that he is just flat out missing some shots right now. His high percentage on FT's doesnt suggest he has trouble with the moment. If he struggles again next year he might have an issue, but one year of bad shooting is hardly enough to suggest he isnt clutch, especially coming off a very good clutch year the season prior.
Last year he shot 43%, this year he is 34%. One big positive is that he is a 93% FT shooter in the clutch (which is far above a lot of star who actually become worse FT shooters in clutch).
Looking at the stats, year to year clutch performance seems fairly random among star players. The sample sizes are usually fairly small and there is probably noise in there (like if a game is within 5 with 10 seconds left, if the player has to throw up an insanely hard shot right away, that is going to count against his "clutchness" but is that fair?). I've struggled to find any star who puts up consistently good clutch stats year to year outside of Lebron James, who probably gets a good deal of shots from the interior as evidence to his avg shot distance. A great example of the fluctuations throughout a career would be Joe Johnson, who has had extreme peaks and valleys throughout his clutch rating history (had a year where he shot 29% in the clutch with the Hawks and a year of 47%)
https://www.nbaminer.com/clutch-time-stats/
I would judge that your smell test is probably **** though. A lot of people think Lillard passes teh smell test, but is historically an awful clutch player every year.
And Hood is a better (extremely small sample size of 17 shots so far tho) clutch shooter this year (worse last year, especially in final minute situations), but he also gets a much higher percentage of his makes assisted on compared to Hayward.
Even a guy like Klay Thompson, who gets a large percentage of his makes assisted, WAY more than the average super-star, has been prone to high fluctuations year to year in his clutchness.
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♪alt13
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Yes there is. All NBA players have it to some degree. I would airball the **** out of any shot that I took on TV. The pressure is real. If a player shoots near his normal percentage in high pressure situations then that player is clutch. If he shoots much worse then he is a choker.
Almost no one does though, especially not perimeter shooting stars. I guess open catch and shoot and FT's are the only thing I would feel really prove clutchness. Just a flat FG% differential between regular vs clutch wouldn't just be clutch ability, it would be the degree of difficulty of their shots. The problem with looking at open catch and shoot is that the sample sizes in those limited minutes are probably very small. So wouldn't FT% differential be the most pure measure of clutch ability we could get?
♪alt13
Well-Known Member
I don't know. I guess that depends on how much you can filter nba tracking stats.