Hayward & Jazz - not close to agreement (Hayward leaving 4/40 on the table)
- Thread starter udflyer
- Start date
You're being kind.
Jazz4ever
Well-Known Member
Well I guess I am Hayward's agent right now and Franklin is Lindsey.
Okay, here's one possible rationale for locking up Hayward with an extension. I may be reaching here, but whatever. Here goes:
We might be able to draft not one, but two excellent wing players in this upcoming draft, say both Jabari Parker and Aaron Harrison, James Young or Wayne Selden. Hence we might then want to trade Hayward after the draft. Yet, given the players we've just drafted, other teams will go after Hayward as a restricted FA because they are confident the Jazz won't match due to the players we've just drafted. This turns out to be the case, the Jazz don't match a big offer on Hayward, and Hayward walks for nothing. However, if we have Hayward on a longer term deal, we can trade him to any team in the league any time during the next year, and we can let the bidding begin.
In other words, having Hayward locked in on an extension, gives the Jazz a bit more flexibility to use Hayward as a trade asset if they want. Of course, this assumes Hayward's contract is reasonable and movable.
We might be able to draft not one, but two excellent wing players in this upcoming draft, say both Jabari Parker and Aaron Harrison, James Young or Wayne Selden. Hence we might then want to trade Hayward after the draft. Yet, given the players we've just drafted, other teams will go after Hayward as a restricted FA because they are confident the Jazz won't match due to the players we've just drafted. This turns out to be the case, the Jazz don't match a big offer on Hayward, and Hayward walks for nothing. However, if we have Hayward on a longer term deal, we can trade him to any team in the league any time during the next year, and we can let the bidding begin.
In other words, having Hayward locked in on an extension, gives the Jazz a bit more flexibility to use Hayward as a trade asset if they want. Of course, this assumes Hayward's contract is reasonable and movable.
$11 - $12 mil. That's what he's asking for now, so make him prove it.
[size/HUGE] fixed [/size];683202 said:
The irony of the biggest Curry homer has overcome me with . . . . I agree he isn't close to sixth best though.
****er Greg Miller can't afford me homie.
I think you caught it all.
b_line
Well-Known Member
I think players with those numbers are near max guys. Paul George didn't even have those numbers in points or assists. Rudy gay is another example, and he is making like 15mil per year. Luol deng is a similar guy, making over 14 per year.
Hayward will produce in the vicinity of 18 points, 4 assists and 4 rebounds this year. His shooting will be around 46-47% and he will shoot around 40% from three. He handles the ball and initiates offense reasonably well, and plays above average defense. What other guys in the league will give you that same production for less than 13 million per season?
I am asking seriously here. I have casually looked at a few guys, but really I have not found a comparable player to Hayward who makes less than 15 million per year.
Gvc, Franklin, help us out here. Who, in terms of salary and production should we be comparing Hayward to? And why, based on comparables, is he not worth more than $10 mm per year?
MVP
Well-Known Member
I suggest you check his preseason FG%. With increase usage his FG dropped and his TO increased. Exactly like numerous posters here predicted. No way in hell he will be shooting 46-47FG%. No freaking way. Just wait til teams start preparing for him specifically and sending him to the left side where he can't make bucket to save his life.
If you're talking about points and rebounds, you could compare Hayward to Gallinari, DeMar DeRozan or Tyreke Evans, all of whom earn in the $10 - $11.8mm range. The question is whether Hayward's versatility and playmaking makes him special.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Last year, playing off-ball with the first unit or running the floor with a well rested second unit, he shot .435. If he's going to be initiating like he has in the preseason, and playing against starters, that number should go down (look at his preseason numbers).
Bringing up Rudy Gay is appropriate. He's a player who was never quite able to get over the hump and become an elite iso/PnR scorer. He's still much better than Gordo, but everyone recognizes at this point that he's ridiculously overpaid.
And you're asking the wrong questions. The Jazz should be concerned about maximizing their assets. Gordo is neither an elite, physical shut-down perimeter defender nor a guy who can get you buckets when the defense is set/the offense breaks down/the shot clock is running short. He's a terrific off-ball scorer, a good defender, a glue guy. The problem with that is, to contend you need that top end talent (Favors may provide this in the form of rebounding and rim protection, which is why he shoul dbe paid more than Gordo). Once you have that talent, a player like Gordo becomes a luxury. That is, the drop-off in value as complementary players from Gordo to Redick/Dudley/Martell Webster/Danny Green is not significant.
Yes, if you don't care about contending, and only want to make sure you have enough talent not to suck, making risky moves in favor of safe ones (trading Gordo v. overpaying Gordo) gives you a better chance of getting you where you want to go. If that's what the Jazz plan is, I have no idea why they didn't re-sign Paul Millsap and Demarre Carroll, however.
With that said, the Jazz FO likely has a much better idea of how valued Gordo is by other teams. It may still be better to overpay now if you know you can get a good return in a trade at the deadline/in the summer.
A year from now, what used to be called the Core 4 will be the Core 8, and probably two or more players will need to be traded. Extending Hayward is a good move, but the Jazz aren't desperate and have little incentive to overpay.
b_line
Well-Known Member
Yeah 43% is terrible. For some reason I thought it was closer to 45%. I must have been looking at his career number.
I guess if the jazz are planning on keeping him for value in a trade, then a front loaded deal would be ideal. Then what is the top end to pay? I guess for me, it would be just a little less than what favors got.
The elite level talent you mentioned is, to me, one of the most important things. Every high level player should have one or two things they do on an elite level, right? Hayward just does a lot of things above average, except 3pt shooting, which he approaches elite level. But like you said, so does redick, and a number of other players.
For me, I think like $12mm per is max I would go.
Guitaro
Well-Known Member
This is correct. Not hiding it. Have come to like the Jazz in this time. 3 years now and I have watched EVERY game and gone to 4. So what ? I follow players on many teams. And yes, when Hayward leaves I will
follow him with his new team. Reality of sports these days. No loyalty anywhere.
This does not change the fact that he will get 12-13 as a RFA, easy. If this Jazz want him pay it. If they don't , walk away.
I think it strains the relationship not to be extended now. Creates ill will (no matter what athlete says, they want the extension now, they have ego)
It's a business call and it is a business. All I read and hear is that many GM's will jump at Hayward in summer.
Don't forget, Hayward is a high IQ player being coached by "not the sharpest tool in the shed". Hayward goes to a smart coach, look out, All-star...easy.
I'm curious if all this talk by other GM's and coaches could be considered tampering, because there are contract talks going on right now and also because he's not their player?
If the Jazz land two good picks suddenly Hayward become very important. He will be that all important glue guy. He will make those around him better. His off ball movement, spot shooting, handling, passing and ability to play D bring it all together. If you have Wiggins, Burke, Kanter, Favors, Gobert and another rookie I see Hayward tying it all together.
Guitaro
Well-Known Member
I agree. Although, $12 million is pushing it for a guy that is good but much more replaceable than a big guy. All wing players, outside of Superstars, are replaceable.
The thing is, Hayward is looking pretty great right now because the rest of our team kinda stinks right now. They'll have great games here and there but then stink the next game.
Paul George is a better player than Hayward and should make more $ than him. In fact, I compare Hayward to someone like BRuss or Shandon Anderson but with better understanding of the game.
Finally, Hayward needs to think of the team. If every players asks for $12-13 million then we'll have a huge payroll for an under-producing team. Not a great formula for success.
Which works if Hayward is at the right salary.
Hayward is going to average about 18 ppg, 4 apg and 3 rpg. However he is going to have 3 topg and shot 39% from the field. I think in the end his value is going to come down a little. And if not you can work out a sign and trade.
Guitaro
Well-Known Member
That's the thing, his shooting % and turnovers aren't helping his or his agent's claim that he deserves more than what's being offered. Just look at other teams who paid their players $10 million or more and how many of them are happy for doing so? How many of those same wing players are constant discussion for trades?
Thee Idiotic Minivan K
Well-Known Member
Interesting that Hayward has to prove himself to the fans but Favors doesn't. I fully support the jazz in the extension they gave Favors, but it's rediculus to think that Favors isn't any less a risk then Hayward is who by the way is less proven then Hayward. Yes Favors impacts a game with his defense, but Hayward also impacts the game with his playmaking, 3pt shooting, ability to get to the foul line, man, and help defense, and IQ. So if it's too big a risk to pay Hayward what we gave Favors, then we should reconsider what Favors got knowing that we also have Kanter waiting in the wings to get paid.
How many opertunities has Hayward had to carry the team playing off the bench for most of his time here and having to defer to Sap and Al, and the few times he's had that chance he's come through. Also never said I thought he should get a max deal.
you seriously need to cut back on the Viagra. Hayward is well ahead of Manu at this point. Hell Manu is what 36-37 years old? In his prime he was on equal ground with Parker. Parker is actually better now then he was 5 years ago. And they played with an all time great. Hayward is better at everything than Deng other then rebounding and defense, and I'd say they are a wash at defense. And there is no way Ray is even close to Hayward at this point in his career, and would rather have Hayward over Jar Jar.
who is saying we should pay him 15 a year?
can you provide a link, would like to take a look at that.
why does he need to prove it being more proven then Favors, and Favors doesn't?