margodydek
Well-Known Member
But they don't own Hedo.
houston's plan b?
- Thread starter theNBAnerd
- Start date
But they don't own Hedo.
margodydek
Well-Known Member
Wowzers! Look at that roster:
Furkan Aldemir
Omer Asik
Earl Boykins
Jon Brockman
Toney Douglas
Gary Forbes
Courtney Fortson
Josh Harrellson
JaJuan Johnson
Terrence Jones
Jeremy Lamb
Jeremy Lin
Shaun Livingston
Kevin Martin
E'Twaun Moore
Marcus Morris
Donatas Motiejunas
Chandler Parsons
Patrick Patterson
Diamon Simpson
Greg Smith
Royce White
Sean Williams
Furkan Aldemir
Omer Asik
Earl Boykins
Jon Brockman
Toney Douglas
Gary Forbes
Courtney Fortson
Josh Harrellson
JaJuan Johnson
Terrence Jones
Jeremy Lamb
Jeremy Lin
Shaun Livingston
Kevin Martin
E'Twaun Moore
Marcus Morris
Donatas Motiejunas
Chandler Parsons
Patrick Patterson
Diamon Simpson
Greg Smith
Royce White
Sean Williams
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
I know. I wanted to keep you on your toes you skell. So now that you've passed my test, you've earned the right to see my actual proposal.
Jefferson for Toronto pick and a bad contract...I'd offer a name there but shamsports doesn't appear to be updated.
If true, WOW! Why would Detroit give up their most valuable asset? What could Houston even give them that would make it worthwhile?
For Nerd, Houston boards seem to be framing their interest in Jefferson around taking K. Martin's contract (plus one of rookies perhaps) rather than picks. Would you take Martin in return? Is there anyway not to make our logjam at the 2 worse by doing so?
This seems to be the trouble: ideally we'd want a good (not just mediocre) pick for Jefferson. Then we might be able to take back a bad contract. But can we find a partner willing to do that? Can we do that without taking back someone who just adds to our current positional logjams? I'm afraid that the best we're likely to get for Jefferson is a couple mediocre players (who likely add to our logjams) and/or a fairly mediocre pick.
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
umm... i think you read my post wrong. we can take the toronto first (owned by houston) and hedo's contract (owned by orlando).
and i know that those young guys aren't going to bring us a title... the hope is that favors is our future stud and that by getting him out from underneath al's shadow, HE brings us a title someday. so you take back one of those young guys just so you still have a steady 4-man rotation at the 4 and 5.
i'm looking at the tweet right now (and the rumor central page it links to) and those were two completely separate comments. they were teasing the delfino-to-rockets story and THEN mentioned that greg monroe could possibly be changing positions with the pistons:
Greg Monroe has played at center the first two years in the NBA with the Detroit Pistons, but he could be changing positions since the team selected Andre Drummond in the June draft.
"They basically said I need to be prepared to play power forward," Monroe told Keith Langlois of Pistons.com.
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
greg monroe is NOT being traded, folks. here is the tweet, where curry, delfino, monroe and uzoh are clearly very SEPARATE news reports from rumor central:
when you follow the URL (if you're an insider), you'll see that the "positive move for greg monroe?" is referring to the fact that the pistons would like him to play more PF now that they have drummond. nothing to do with the rockets whatsoever.
when you follow the URL (if you're an insider), you'll see that the "positive move for greg monroe?" is referring to the fact that the pistons would like him to play more PF now that they have drummond. nothing to do with the rockets whatsoever.
margodydek
Well-Known Member
I hear Houston's high on Moteijunas, so I'm not sure they'd go for it, but I'd do Motiejunas + a pick for Al in heartbeat. Looking back on the fact that we really looked into getting Anderson, I would think the FO would be intrigued with Motiejunas (big who can shoot outside).
I do think we need to move Al, but I'm not of the opinion that simply eliminating him from the roster instantly makes us better. If we do move him I want a solid piece in return + a draft pick.
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
I think we'd need to take on some ****ty contract, not a young prospect, in order to get that Toronto pick.
nerd: How or why does Hedo/Orlando even come into this?
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
I think we'd need to take on some ****ty contract, not a young prospect, in order to get that Toronto pick.
nerd: How or why does Hedo/Orlando even come into this?
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
good question, which is why i addressed martin earlier in this thread. no, i wouldn't want anything to do with martin, but plenty of teams would. earlier i mentioned involving toronto as a third team in a trade. they have basically no scoring from their wings, and they have a glut of point guards now that they have added lowry and john lucas III.
so maybe they would want a martin-type player bad enough that they'd ship us jose calderon's expiring deal. jose is a pure PG, an ideal backup to mo since that's not mo's strength, and then if we were ever faced with an injury, we have a starting-caliber PG who can take over.
not saying THAT deal would work, but that's how i'd try to construct an al deal -- so we get a playmaking PG and/or a rotation-ready big in return.
also, i'll just add that what houston fans demand on a message board isn't going to drive these negotiations any more than what i say on jazzfanz is going to drive the negotiations from utah's end. we saw the list of what morey was willing to give up to get a star big. obviously we would have to give them an "al is not dwight" discount, but houston certainly wasn't demanding that orlando take martin.
margodydek
Well-Known Member
I agree, but I think I'd rather take Motiejunas + future first (not TOR's - maybe DAL's or HOU's) instead of a crappy contract + TOR pick.
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
i brought up hedo/orlando because i was sharing feigen's post about what morey was offering orlando for dwight. obviously the price will change for al, but it's a good starting point to understand morey's approach to asset management and his pursuit of a star big.
what more had on the table for dwight was: the toronto pick, the dallas pick, possibly houston's own pick, two of those six young bigs, AND they'd absorb two of orlando's three bad contracts (hedo/duhon/jrich).
i was just trying to start there and work backward to something that felt more al-appropriate.
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
With all due respect, you're nuts. I'd rather likely have a top eight pick (if not five) and have a crappy contract for one year than a pick that's likely to be in the 14-20 range.
The point about the message boards is true, of course. But I'm not sure using the framework of the Dwight proposal and subtracting from there is necessarily an accurate approach either.
But to the larger point: if we could flip Al for Calderon (plus perhaps a late first or one of Houston's redundant mediocre PFs), I suppose I could get behind it. But I'm probably not as confident as you that Calderon gives us much of an upgrade at PG. As I see it now, the only way we're not having real playing time problems is if Foye can be the primary backup to Mo (and perhaps let Watson go somewhere for next to nothing). Calderon just adds to our PG logjam of mediocre PGs and pushes Foye into more SG minutes.
To expand on my previous thoughts. I just don't think it makes much sense to move Al unless we get some appropriate combination of:
a) KOC/Lindsey confident that Kanter is ready for much increased minutes. It sounds like they're keeping close tabs on him this summer, so hopefully they have a good feel on this.
b) Jazz get decent draft pick(s) or very good draft picks if we take on a bad contract.
c) Jazz get player(s) in return that help reduce their logjam of similarly effective players -- i.e. marginal-to-low-level starters. I think we either need a clear upgrade at a position or someone who will clearly contribute (and be willing to contribute) with skills we don't currently possess as a backup. It doesn't really help us to clear up the logjam for Kanter if we're just creating more of a logjam somewhere else.
If we're not able to fit some adequate combination of these criteria, I think it may make more sense to just ride out the season, let Al walk, and throw our hats in the free agency scrum next summer.
a) KOC/Lindsey confident that Kanter is ready for much increased minutes. It sounds like they're keeping close tabs on him this summer, so hopefully they have a good feel on this.
b) Jazz get decent draft pick(s) or very good draft picks if we take on a bad contract.
c) Jazz get player(s) in return that help reduce their logjam of similarly effective players -- i.e. marginal-to-low-level starters. I think we either need a clear upgrade at a position or someone who will clearly contribute (and be willing to contribute) with skills we don't currently possess as a backup. It doesn't really help us to clear up the logjam for Kanter if we're just creating more of a logjam somewhere else.
If we're not able to fit some adequate combination of these criteria, I think it may make more sense to just ride out the season, let Al walk, and throw our hats in the free agency scrum next summer.
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
then i think we're on the same page, idiot. i think trading al makes the most sense ONLY if favors is ready to step into al's 30+ mpg and kanter is ready to step into favors' 20+ mpg, and even then, we ideally would need to get something of unique value.
to me, calderon (as an example) fits that criteria. we don't have a playmaking PG on the roster right now... at least not a good one. foye is not an ideal backup PG, tinsley can barely run anymore, and watson was a little bit of toughness combined with some really bad numbers.
in my mind, PG is our thinnest position right now. we have mo, whose career average is 30 mpg, which means that after that we have 18 minutes of garbage and less-than-ideal solutions. it's the only position we're not two deep at, so if we're going to trade al (or even paul, though i hope that's not the case) we might as well take advantage of the opportunity to get a guy who gives us a bit of a different feel than mo. mo is a scoring guard and a shooter, so it only makes sense to complement him with someone who is more of a pass-first guy. calderon fits that, and the best part is he expires at the end of the season, so we STILL get to join the free agency scrum next season like you mentioned.
favors - kanter
sap - jones/white - evans
marvin - burks - carroll
hayward - foye - murphy
mo - calderon - tinsley/watson
favors + kanter grow up a little, we're two deep everywhere, and then we still go into next summer with multiple draft picks and cap flexibility. i really don't see the downside.
to me, calderon (as an example) fits that criteria. we don't have a playmaking PG on the roster right now... at least not a good one. foye is not an ideal backup PG, tinsley can barely run anymore, and watson was a little bit of toughness combined with some really bad numbers.
in my mind, PG is our thinnest position right now. we have mo, whose career average is 30 mpg, which means that after that we have 18 minutes of garbage and less-than-ideal solutions. it's the only position we're not two deep at, so if we're going to trade al (or even paul, though i hope that's not the case) we might as well take advantage of the opportunity to get a guy who gives us a bit of a different feel than mo. mo is a scoring guard and a shooter, so it only makes sense to complement him with someone who is more of a pass-first guy. calderon fits that, and the best part is he expires at the end of the season, so we STILL get to join the free agency scrum next season like you mentioned.
favors - kanter
sap - jones/white - evans
marvin - burks - carroll
hayward - foye - murphy
mo - calderon - tinsley/watson
favors + kanter grow up a little, we're two deep everywhere, and then we still go into next summer with multiple draft picks and cap flexibility. i really don't see the downside.
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
You can do a lot worse than Calderon for Jefferson. Then again, you can do a lot better too.
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
my idea was actually calderon + white/jones. draft pick optional.
houston gives: kevin martin, white/jones
houston gets: al jefferson
toronto gives: jose calderon
toronto gets: kevin martin
utah gives: al jefferson
utah gets: jose calderon, white/jones
thing is, there would be people -- both locally and in the national media -- who would say the jazz got fleeced in that deal because they gave up an 19-and-10 guy who is an elite low-post scorer for a backup PG and a 3rd/4th wing. but i'd be giddy if we got that much for him. if houston threw in the dallas pick or their own 1st, i'd probably wet myself.
Gyp Rosetti
Banned
Color me limp.
theNBAnerd
Well-Known Member
why houston does it: they give up a fraction of the dwight package to get a player who (appropriately) is a fraction of dwight, but they maintain the flexibility to go big after another free agent next season. or, they can treat jefferson as another asset to explore options. they could flip jefferson with the toronto pick, their glut of big men and their willingness to take on bad salary and get something better than they could with martin.
why toronto does it: they don't need three PGs. lowry is clearly their starter going forward, and lucas III is good enough he should get some backup minutes. having calderon is a luxury for them, and if they could exchange that luxury for something they actually need (an elite perimeter shooter), they would have to consider.
why utah does it: clear the way for favors/kanter to take a step forward in their development, while addressing the only position where they're not already two deep and providing a 4th big for the 4-man rotation. millsap + favors start, kanter slides over into favors' role, and white/jones takes over kanter's clean-up time of 13-15 mpg.
why toronto does it: they don't need three PGs. lowry is clearly their starter going forward, and lucas III is good enough he should get some backup minutes. having calderon is a luxury for them, and if they could exchange that luxury for something they actually need (an elite perimeter shooter), they would have to consider.
why utah does it: clear the way for favors/kanter to take a step forward in their development, while addressing the only position where they're not already two deep and providing a 4th big for the 4-man rotation. millsap + favors start, kanter slides over into favors' role, and white/jones takes over kanter's clean-up time of 13-15 mpg.