How are we going to score without Al?

[fishonjazz]

How is your conviction that the offense will move the ball better or guys will cut more without Al any less speculative? The Toronto game? The Laker game when our bigs didn't pass the ball any more than Al does?

Seems like both of those games (toronto and LA) were quit good games for the jazz.... Do you disagree? Oh wait your stubborness will force you to say it was because of the defense of the opponent and that it had nothing to do with the fact that al was getting the ball less.

Or something like "sample size".

So how did i do explaining your side of the arguement for ya?

 

[billyshelby]

Ya i acknowledged that we use favors and kanter the same way, however the difference between favors/kanter and jefferson is that corbin wants the offense to go through AL MORE OFTEN than favors and kanter.

But that's not true, either. Under normal circumstances, Favors and Kanter are on the floor with Tinsley. Hayward is usually out there and we've (thankfully) gotten away from letting Hayward do too much. Tinsley makes plays Mo can't make as a PG, but the offense generally runs the same way.

Chart it if you want. But we don't run a starter offense and a backup offense.

 

[fishonjazz]

But that's not true, either. Under normal circumstances, Favors and Kanter are on the floor with Tinsley. Hayward is usually out there and we've (thankfully) gotten away from letting Hayward do too much. Tinsley makes plays Mo can't make as a PG, but the offense generally runs the same way.

Chart it if you want. But we don't run a starter offense and a backup offense.

Fact is (however unfortunate to your side of this arguement) that favors and kanter get less minutes than al.... therfore there is no doubt in my mind that i am correct when i say that Al has the ball in the post MORE OFTEN than favors and kanter.... due to minutes that is straight up fact.

Now when you say that nothing would change if kanter or favors started instead of al that is total guessing and speculation.
I always take the side of fact over guessing. Sorry

Also there is a huge change to the offense you are forgetting. Kanter and favors are much more mobile so there is alot more transition offense. And they are better defensively causing turnovers and tough shots leading to even more transition.

 

[billyshelby]

Seems like both of those games (toronto and LA) were quit good games for the jazz.... Do you disagree? Oh wait your stubborness will force you to say it was because of the defense of the opponent and that it had nothing to do with the fact that al was getting the ball less.

Or something like "sample size".

So how did i do explaining your side of the arguement for ya?

Forget Toronto, I can't convert anyone who thinks blowing out Toronto was because of a paradigm shift.

Look at LA. Paul took 18 shots. He had 2 assists. In 40 minutes. Who does that remind you of? And the ball still "moved" right?

 

[fishonjazz]

Plus right now kanter and favors are used similar to AL and that COULD be due to that fact that it is difficult for an inexperienced coach and young bench to change the offense up for the non big al lineups.

Is it not possible that with al gone and favors or kanter in his place that ty could eventually change the offense to something more pick and roll focused or something?

 

[fishonjazz]

Forget Toronto, I can't convert anyone who thinks blowing out Toronto was because of a paradigm shift.

Look at LA. Paul took 18 shots. He had 2 assists. In 40 minutes. Who does that remind you of? And the ball still "moved" right?

Not sure if the ball moved but it sure was a fun game to watch and we seemed to score ok (117 pts) during that game. (that is what this thread is all about after all)

 

[billyshelby]

I like you Billy, but I have a trollish response:

Cool story. Would you like some Sexual Turkey?

I have said in every post that I don't think either Al or Paul will be back and we will start next year with Favors and Kanter starting. Based on what I have seen from Kanter very recently, I'd basically be OK with that. But we will get worse off the bat because neither of those guys can score reliably in the post, and many people don't seem to understand how important that is to an offense.

 

[fishonjazz]

I have said in every post that I don't think either Al or Paul will be back and we will start next year with Favors and Kanter starting. Based on what I have seen from Kanter very recently, I'd basically be OK with that. But we will get worse off the bat because neither of those guys can score reliably in the post, and many people don't seem to understand how important that is to an offense.

Like i said, you presume that the offense will be the same.....is it not possible for corbin to change the offense once his safety blanket (jefferson) is gone?

Or do think there is some kind of rule that no matter the personnell the offense must go through the low post no matter what?

Oh wait you said yourself that they used paul millsap against the lakers in a much different way and totally changed the offense to the tune of 117 pts on the road.... so there is a chance things could change without big Al.
Thanks for that insight billy. I look forward to next year even more now!

 

[billyshelby]

Not sure if the ball moved but it sure was a fun game to watch and we seemed to score ok (117 pts) during that game. (that is what this thread is all about after all)

This thread is not about what the "funnest" offense is. If we were looking for "fun" we'd hire Paul Westhead to install the Loyola Marymount offense. Scoring more points does not mean we ran a different offense against the Lakers. We just ran things better than we have with more guys cutting and a very good break.

 

[Brown Notes]

I'll add this as a sidebar: at least there is the merit that I'm willing to admit the speculative nature of my argument. The Al apologists preach their stuff like gospel.

It's just a specific response to a specific accusation. There is somebody wandering all over the GD place in here but it's not me. If you don't like watching basketball with the ball going down low into the bigs all the time great, awesome. Me too. I want a more rounded offense same as everybody else. The fact is Al Jefferson does not make that low block action any slower than it is designed to be, nor does he discourage other players from moving by doing something incorrectly.

 

[billyshelby]

Like i said, you presume that the offense will be the same.....is it not possible for corbin to change the offense once his safety blanket (jefferson) is gone?

Or do think there is some kind of rule that no matter the personnell the offense must go through the low post no matter what?

Oh wait you said yourself that they used paul millsap against the lakers in a much different way and totally changed the offense to the tune of 117 pts on the road.... so there is a chance things could change without big Al.
Thanks for that insight billy. I look forward to next year even more now!

Whether Al takes his 18 shots on the block, or Paul takes his 18 on the elbow doesn't change anything. The ball is not "moving more" in either scenario. That was the point. Ty didn't change the offense. He changed who shot it the most. And Paul, like Al, was offensive minded all night as he should have been because he had the matchup. The movement you saw came from the rest of the offense doing what they were supposed to do which has nothing to do with Paul or Al.

 

[fishonjazz]

This thread is not about what the "funnest" offense is. If we were looking for "fun" we'd hire Paul Westhead to install the Loyola Marymount offense. Scoring more points does not mean we ran a different offense against the Lakers. We just ran things better than we have with more guys cutting and a very good break.

You said yourself that we went to millsap on the elbow.

Is millsap on the elbow the same as big al on the low block? Hmmm i though big al and millsap were two different people and the elbow was in a different location than the low block.

This thread is titled "how are we going to score without big al" Well the last two games didn't feature much of big al scoring and i feel like 133 pts and 117 is pretty good.

Silly me.

 

[fishonjazz]

What did people see when they watched the Laker game? What I saw is this: By design, Paul basically replaced Al in the offense due to matchups (score Ty). While he did operate out of the low block a few times (like Al), he mostly operated on that elbow (another score Ty because Sap struggles in the post, but is very good on the elbow.)

Sap was not passing. He was not contributing to ball movement. He was relentlessly attacking a mismatch (first Jameson, then Hill). He basically took Al's role because of the mismatch and Al was all too happy to watch him motor.

We mostly killed the Lakers in transition (which is also not ball movement.) But we did get another solid start from Mo, Tinsley played well, and we had tons of cutters. Again, this has nothing to do with post play.

Here you say the offense changed by using millsap mostly on the elbow and having him attack mismatches (score Ty)... and killing the lakers in transition. and had tons of cutters..... its all right there billy, read your own observations in your own post..... at the end you say this has nothing to do with post play.

Seems like a different way to play than dump it down to al.

 

[fishonjazz]

Whether Al takes his 18 shots on the block, or Paul takes his 18 on the elbow doesn't change anything. The ball is not "moving more" in either scenario. That was the point. Ty didn't change the offense. He changed who shot it the most. And Paul, like Al, was offensive minded all night as he should have been because he had the matchup. The movement you saw came from the rest of the offense doing what they were supposed to do which has nothing to do with Paul or Al.

But this IS the point. Al doesn't have to get the ball on the low block all game every game for the jazz to score... there are other ways like paul millsap on the elbow or getting in transition more or moving the ball around the perimeter and hitting open threes, maybe some pick and roll in the future.

The whole point of this thread is that we CAN in fact score without al and your own posts prove that billy.... now you are just argueing with yourself.... I hope you win!

 

[billyshelby]

You said yourself that we went to millsap on the elbow.

Is millsap on the elbow the same as big al on the low block? Hmmm i though big al and millsap were two different people and the elbow was in a different location than the low block.

This thread is titled "how are we going to score without big al" Well the last two games didn't feature much of big al scoring and i feel like 133 pts and 117 is pretty good.

Silly me.

Al on the block = Paul at the elbow. The only difference is where we were looking to score from the bigs and who was doing it. Paul went 9/18 with 2 assists. Pretty similar to an Al night, right?

 

[fishonjazz]

Whether Al takes his 18 shots on the block, or Paul takes his 18 on the elbow doesn't change anything. The ball is not "moving more" in either scenario. That was the point. Ty didn't change the offense. He changed who shot it the most. And Paul, like Al, was offensive minded all night as he should have been because he had the matchup. The movement you saw came from the rest of the offense doing what they were supposed to do which has nothing to do with Paul or Al.

See whether al takes his 18 shots or paul does, DOES in fact change things... cause i would much rather watch paul take those shots than al because the way paul plays is more energetic and entertaing and he gets to the line more.
There is a difference between paul shooting or Al shooting..... at least for my entertainment and really isn't that why we watch the games? to have fun and be entertained.

 

[fishonjazz]

Al on the block = Paul at the elbow. The only difference is where we were looking to score from the bigs and who was doing it. Paul went 9/18 with 2 assists. Pretty similar to an Al night, right?

But billy come on man your smarter than this. Those are different because of where and who.
Lebron pentrating is different than cj miles.
Ray allen shooting 3's is different than fessenko.
Most of us are sick of watching al post up.... simple as that. We want something different and paul getting the ball at the elbow is different and also effective. The thread asks if we can score without al... the answer seems to be yes by going to paul on the elbow according to you.

 

[fishonjazz]

Al on the block = Paul at the elbow. The only difference is where we were looking to score from the bigs and who was doing it. Paul went 9/18 with 2 assists. Pretty similar to an Al night, right?

It is similar to an al night statistically but thankfully i dont just watch the game via box score. I enjoy pauls game more so i would love it if paul was taking more of al's shots each game and that is why its "different"

 

[billyshelby]

See whether al takes his 18 shots or paul does, DOES in fact change things... cause i would much rather watch paul take those shots than al because the way paul plays is more energetic and entertaing and he gets to the line more.
There is a difference between paul shooting or Al shooting..... at least for my entertainment and really isn't that why we watch the games? to have fun and be entertained.

Your goal is to be entertained. I get it.

 

[LunaticWolf]

....and the circular logic becomes tortuous...

No. There is no circular logic. You are assuming that the wings are not cutting because Al has the ball.

They are not cutting because they are having an off night, or their man defender is getting on their nerves, or they are too pansy to get in the thick of things and set screens.

It has nothing to do with Al bro.

So billy what changed these last few games to make the "light bulb" go off on the fact that there are more cutters/ball movement?

Seems like the thing that changed is in one of the games al was out and the other game we went to paul more.

Well, we had our first practice since a long *** road trip for starters.

Also there is a huge change to the offense you are forgetting. Kanter and favors are much more mobile so there is alot more transition offense. And they are better defensively causing turnovers and tough shots leading to even more transition.

Which really has nothing to do with ball movement in set plays.

See whether al takes his 18 shots or paul does, DOES in fact change things... cause i would much rather watch paul take those shots than al because the way paul plays is more energetic and entertaing and he gets to the line more.
There is a difference between paul shooting or Al shooting..... at least for my entertainment and really isn't that why we watch the games? to have fun and be entertained.

I'd rather win games.

I hear the Warriors in 06-07 were quite exciting. You should go be a fan there.