By teaching habits they had to unlearn the next year.
I'd rather have Utah's history and future than Golden State's.
You'd like to have Chicago's team right now?
My point exactly.
How do the Jazz get this thing back on track?
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By teaching habits they had to unlearn the next year.
I'd rather have Utah's history and future than Golden State's.
You'd like to have Chicago's team right now?
My point exactly.
TheSilencer1313
Well-Known Member
Ah..... I was really starting to miss the multiple quoted posts from One Brow.
green
Well-Known Member
Yeah, hurt them so much they went 20-62, then drafted Tim Duncan and went 56-26 the next year.
Yeah, another example. 23-43 the tank year. 47-35. Killed them. No growth there at all.
Very simplistic way to look at it considering Rose is down with an injury. Let me put it this way: Let's say Chicago or LA decided to sit Rose and Kobe for the year and go full blown tank mode, than added Embiid with Rose and Randle with Kobe. That would DESTROY those franchises. My goodness. All the bad things they would have to get over....Come on now.
Your point was that tanking instilled bad habits. That by tanking, you would be doing things that were bad for your players. That is not true. You can tank, while developing Burke. You do it the way the Jazz have done it. Put as little talent around him that you can't win. See how the guys fight through it. Having Burke step up as a leader, get better defensively and take a couple lumps isn't creating bad habits.
You can tank and progress at the same time.
TheSilencer1313
Well-Known Member
I actually love this post.
So what assets do you think we can net with a Marvin, RJ, Rush trade?
Did the Spurs go on to success? Sure. Are they the rule, or the exception?
Looking at Golden State and us, right now, would you swap rosters, draft futures, etc. with them? If the goal is a championship and nothing else, than Golden State failed. Their players don't play injured, because they've been conditioned to sit while injured.
There's no guarantee Rose or Bryant will be healthier next year. Maybe they should sit them out for three years and let them get really healthy?
When was the last time the Lakers tanked their way into a great player?
You think we can find worse players than Richard Jefferson to surround him with, that will still play the sort of basketball we want Burke to play?
We did surround our young guys with dross. We are seeing how they are fighting through it, and they are fighting through it so well that they are winning. Now, you want to cut their legs out from under them. You don't think that will send a counter-productive message to the team? People are not robots. If you react negatively when they do well, they stop doing well.
![[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]](/data/avatars/m/2/2497.jpg?1511131091){kind=avatar}
[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]
Well-Known Member
decent points. But, if these guys aren't robots, do you think they'd understand management's decision to flip players like Jefferson, Rush, and Marvin for future assets given their current record?
What do you think they thought when the offseason was defined by the Golden State trade + the signing of JL3?
[size/HUGE] fixed [/size];731722 said:
We like to think of ourselves as rational beings, but fundamentally, humans are rationalizing, not rational. The players will understand mentally the reasons, but will emotionally fell the loss of the chemistry and the worse play. The emotional reactions are stronger than the rational reactions.
I can't speak for any player, but the off-season probably offered as much hope as discouragement to a young player. With so many starters gone, the young core was offered a chance to prove themselves. Young lions like to roar. So, I think there was a balance there, emotionally. By contrast, if we trade Jefferson and Williams now, there won't be any increased minutes as a result (except *maybe* for Kanter). There's no other side to that emotional coin.
[size/HUGE] fixed [/size]
Well-Known Member
For a guy that preaches about human complexity, I'm surprised to see you authoring such narrow stuff. These are professionals we are talking about here. Most of them want to be on elite teams. They want to be respected. I think they can see into the future a bit, and understand the value of a high draft pick this year.
Also, there is no real distinction between an emotional reaction and a rational reaction; rationalizing is 'emotionalizing'. In other words, keep the Cartesian **** outta here plz. srs.
imagination
Gotta think creatively about future possibilities.
I't not a matter of "wants" but rather "needs" A playoff team has a starting forward out with injury. What to do as a stopgap? They don't want to take on a long term contract, competitive teams will not give up quality players. Would't they readily give up a second round pick and cash, which the Jazz pick up for nothing?
The bigger challenge is to find matching salary to make the trade work, which makes Marvin a more likely candidate than Jefferson.
May be unlikely, but not impossible to imagine.
Gotta think creatively about future possibilities.
I't not a matter of "wants" but rather "needs" A playoff team has a starting forward out with injury. What to do as a stopgap? They don't want to take on a long term contract, competitive teams will not give up quality players. Would't they readily give up a second round pick and cash, which the Jazz pick up for nothing?
The bigger challenge is to find matching salary to make the trade work, which makes Marvin a more likely candidate than Jefferson.
May be unlikely, but not impossible to imagine.
[size/HUGE] fixed [/size];731838 said:
I don't disagree with anything in the first paragraph. It's one factor in player's reactions.
There's nothing Cartesian about recognizing the difference between habit and analysis. It's the difference between immediate and considered reactions. It's one reason people who acknowledge they are biased behave with less bias in experiments.
//r00t 4 Jazz
Well-Known Member
Not sure about that but that did cause me to think back to last year how bad and TO prone GSW was in the closing minutes of games, anyone else remember that and do you think it is related?
Maybe. I don't know. Mark Jackson certainly didn't seem to know how to handle those situations, which is why you leave the tanking to your front office.
The Jazz need to buy out Marvin Williams and sell it to the league as low ticket sales forcing their hand. Williams can sign anywhere for the vet minimum of $1.2mm, so that's what they'd be saving unless they can find a contender with MLE money left that will agree to sign him for more.
Same goes for Jefferson, but he's not as critical.
Same goes for Jefferson, but he's not as critical.
Coach Ellis
Well-Known Member
Why buyout Marvin? He actually has potential as a tradable asset. His salary isn't outrageous like Jefferson and he's been playing well this year. They could buyout Jefferson if they can't trade him, but I think that you've got to try and get something for Marvin. Getting rid of both those players frees up a ton of minutes for Kanter, Gobert and maybe Burks (with Hayward at the 3) through the rest of the year. May not help the tank like some of us hope it will, but it would give the team a better look at evaluating the young guys together.
It's pretty outrageous. At least when considering that the teams that would want him most are going to be contenders that are asset and cap-strapped and that Marvin simply isn't worth the money on his deal.
^This
The only scenarios that make the least bit of sense to me are
1. Phoenix for Brokafor. Williams is redundant for them.
2. Taking on Tayshaun Prince's extra year. This would really help Memphis. They own their pick but cannot trade it until after making a draft selection, and taking Prince for a future protected pick isn't too exciting. Worth noting -- Memphis owns a TPE that's about $10,000 short of Marvin's contract.
3. Something involving Asik going to a third party i.e. https://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=l9fxl2g This one requires the third party to overvalue Asik as much as Houston does.
The only scenarios that make the least bit of sense to me are
1. Phoenix for Brokafor. Williams is redundant for them.
2. Taking on Tayshaun Prince's extra year. This would really help Memphis. They own their pick but cannot trade it until after making a draft selection, and taking Prince for a future protected pick isn't too exciting. Worth noting -- Memphis owns a TPE that's about $10,000 short of Marvin's contract.
3. Something involving Asik going to a third party i.e. https://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=l9fxl2g This one requires the third party to overvalue Asik as much as Houston does.
I think franklin raises a good point with being a 3rd team. I think we need an ear to the ground to get involved with any 3+ team deal as we should be easier to screw as far as contracts and talent and perhaps pick up a couple small assets when the other two teams may be desperate to reach a deal.
Who are all the garbage players on crappy deals that everyone is trying to get rid of? Anyone have a short list?
Who are all the garbage players on crappy deals that everyone is trying to get rid of? Anyone have a short list?