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If Hayward Leaves?

elan_prodigy said:
I only mentioned it because I had read posts about "blowing the team up". Ben Simmons is one of the only players I'd ever consider giving Rudy up for.


Even if Hayward bails I'm still really excited to see Rudy and Dante on the floor together.
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I assume you are Aussie? In your scenario, I'd rather keep Fultz and the Nets 2018 pick. Nothing against Simmons, but your odds are twice as good with 2 top picks.

In any case, you have to try for a year or two to make things happen around Gobert.
 
stitches said:
If Hayward and Hill both leave(seems like Hill is tied to Hayward, from what he said at exit interviews), I see 3 options really:

1. Retool around Gobert, trying to win as many games as possible - you try to sign players in free agency that will help win right away - Danilo Gallinari, try to trade for Bledsoe using Favors + stuff, opportunistically pluck free agents and other players via trade that will shore up the rotation(Wilson Chandler comes to mind(might have to give up a pick for him), maybe get Lin or Deron or Teodosic as a PG.

2. Rebuild around Gobert - clean everything you can but Gobert for future assets(This would include JJ, Favors, possibly Hood). Give Dante the ball as a PG and tell him it's his team now, let him see what he can do. No stops, no leash, just go berserk, we don't care if he makes a ton of mistakes, we don't care if we lose a ton of games... au contraire - if Dante's PG skills improve while we are losing a ton of games, that's good. Resign Ingles with the idea of selling him for future assets at next trade deadline. Gobert wants bigger offensive role? He want's post ups? Or isos? Maybe the ocasional 3 pointer? Sure... give it to him. Same as with Dante - results don't matter, lets see what he can develop and what he can't, test his limits offensively, especially if it leads to less wins. Try to get the best pick we can. The top of next year's draft seems pretty good. Doncic, Porter Jr... Bamba. Try to get one of the premier ones. If Gobert gets nicked around All-star break... shut him down. Give Bolomboy(or our rookies) the chance to shine. Pick all 4 rookies and give them legit playing time. See what you have in them and if any of them shows surprising developmental spurt or skills.

3. Burn it to the ground (use Gobert to jumpstart the rebuild) - see "Rebuild around Gobert", but in this case in addition to the other moves, trade Gobert for the bank. If Boston for example gives up Fultz + BKN 2018 for Gobert(he's pretty much the perfect missing piece for them, he covers all their weaknesses and makes them strengths - elite rebounding, interior defense, help/weakside defense). Start from zero for the Jazz, but with two high end assets(Fultz + BKN pick) + possibly high Jazz pick in next year's draft).

I honestly have no idea which one I prefer. I think the one that I hate the most is the retool option. I don't think we will be able to retool quickly and well enough to make it worth it. I don't see a retool path that would make us as good as we were this year for the duration of Gobert's contract and in 3 years we will have to start thinking about keeping Gobert, having wasted 3 years of his prime on the tradmill.

In any case, to me Hayward leaving will be devastating for this team. He is not replacable right now, IMO...
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This is a reasonable post, but I disagree that retooling is the option to hate the most. The idea I hate the most is the panic move of trading Gobert. You have 2 years before you have to start worrying about losing him for nothing, and he could very well keep improving over those 2 years. He barely missed the 1st team all-NBA this year, and if he continues to improve, he could be close to a legit top 5 player.

When people talk about contending, we always talk about having a top 10 or better player at least. You don't trade guys like that away unless you're afraid of losing them to FA. They are just too hard to come by.

I don't think the nuclear option should even be considered for 2 years. Give the team 2 years, and if it looks like you aren't going anywhere, then use the nuclear option and go Hinkie mode.
 
People are acting like losing Hayward is the end of the world and we're back to square one with a tanked season and total rebuild but I just don't see it. It's true I don't want to see it, doubt I could endure a tanked season after the progress we achieved this season. But having Hayward, Favors (draft day trade), and I assume Hill (if his buddy leaves) off the books gives us major shopping carte blanche on the free agency market. Otto Porter, Serge Ibaka and Jrue Holliday are all players I hope the Jazz have on their radar. I think people assume (wrongly) that free agents don't want to sign with Utah, but last years haul for three vets proves that's not the case. Also, Rudy has a higher profile around the league than Hayward having made the second team All Star selection and it's crazy to assume that good players wouldn't want to play with a center of that caliber, as well as other young developing talent and a coach that's proven he can make it all work.
 
Last year's haul for vets? Joe Johnson and....no one. Who are all these vets that are flocking to Utah?

What is it about fans that just like to make **** up?
 
green said:
Last year's haul for vets? Joe Johnson and....no one. Who are all these vets that are flocking to Utah?

What is it about fans that just like to make **** up?
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Not that it matters but I think they got diaw too. Also, the jazz hadn't been to the playoffs in a long time when the off season began last year. Vets typically flock to winning teams. Getting a couple of proven vets (hill seemed happy to be in utah too btw even if via trade) to join a team who hadn't been to the playoffs in a long time is pretty good for an off season.

Anywho, look at all the vets that flocked to the Lakers last summer.
 
fishonjazz said:
Not that it matters but I think they got diaw too. Also, the jazz hadn't been to the playoffs in a long time when the off season began last year. Vets typically flock to winning teams. Getting a couple of proven vets (hill seemed happy to be in utah too btw even if via trade) to join a team who hadn't been to the playoffs in a long time is pretty good for an off season.

Anywho, look at all the vets that flocked to the Lakers last summer.
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Diaw was traded to the Jazz in a salary dump.
 
Release the Kraken said:
People are acting like losing Hayward is the end of the world and we're back to square one with a tanked season and total rebuild but I just don't see it. It's true I don't want to see it, doubt I could endure a tanked season after the progress we achieved this season. But having Hayward, Favors (draft day trade), and I assume Hill (if his buddy leaves) off the books gives us major shopping carte blanche on the free agency market. Otto Porter, Serge Ibaka and Jrue Holliday are all players I hope the Jazz have on their radar. I think people assume (wrongly) that free agents don't want to sign with Utah, but last years haul for three vets proves that's not the case. Also, Rudy has a higher profile around the league than Hayward having made the second team All Star selection and it's crazy to assume that good players wouldn't want to play with a center of that caliber, as well as other young developing talent and a coach that's proven he can make it all work.
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Your argument that we will be fine is built on the idea that we will replace Hayward with third or fourth-tier players (that have to choose to sign here)? Yeah, sorry, absolutely not sold on that idea.

I still don't know that people understand just how great Gordon Hayward is.
 
green said:
Last year's haul for vets? Joe Johnson and....no one. Who are all these vets that are flocking to Utah?

What is it about fans that just like to make **** up?
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That's just silly. All three vets made big contributions throughout the season, particularly Hill and Johnson but Diaw filled in admirably for an oft injured Favors as well.
 
NUMBERICA said:
Your argument that we will be fine is built on the idea that we will replace Hayward with third or fourth-tier players (that have to choose to sign here)? Yeah, sorry, absolutely not sold on that idea.

I still don't know that people understand just how great Gordon Hayward is.
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Holliday, Ibaka, Porter fourth tier? Hayward is a great player but even his free agent profile suggests him to be a second option on a championship team type of player.
 
Release the Kraken said:
Holliday, Ibaka, Porter fourth tier? Hayward is a great player but even his free agent profile suggests him to be a second option on a championship team type of player.
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I think this is true but there is a chance he gets better and makes another jump. Even so it's hard to imagine him being on the level of guys like Lebron,Curry,KD, Kawhi, or even Harden, Wetbrook level (if you think they are slightly below the other guys).
 
Release the Kraken said:
Holliday, Ibaka, Porter fourth tier? Hayward is a great player but even his free agent profile suggests him to be a second option on a championship team type of player.
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Hayward is a legit star, legit max player, and second-tier to MVP candidates. Those other guys are nice and necessary pieces but their value is contextual and contingent on how many players are better than them on their own team and how much they're being paid. For what this team is losing - arguably its best player and inarguably the major offensive hub through which everything works - there is no comparing the people you just mentioned. They simply are not candidates to replace one of the most efficient high volume scorers in the league, and one that already understands the system and the other players here.

Did you really just suggest that Ibaka can somehow replace Hayward?
 
NUMBERICA said:
Hayward is a legit star, legit max player, and second-tier to MVP candidates. Those other guys are nice and necessary pieces but their value is contextual and contingent on how many players are better than them on their own team and how much they're being paid. For what this team is losing - arguably its best player and inarguably the major offensive hub through which everything works - there is no comparing the people you just mentioned. They simply are not candidates to replace one of the most efficient high volume scorers in the league, and one that already understands the system and the other players here.

Did you really just suggest that Ibaka can somehow replace Hayward?
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In my earlier post I mentioned the possible loss of Favors and Hill along with Hayward and then went on to list free agents that could step in to replace them. Porter is the small forward in the bunch.

Kinda surprising that we've done as well as we have sans Hayward in the lineup through the years. Considering that it took the influx of three vets and the iso skills of Joe Johnson in clutch time to reach our first playoffs in five years, all this tank or blow up talk sounds completely absurd from my perspective. Hell Hayward couldn't even make third team all nba this year (his best ever). To be clear, I like Hayward but in my view there are any number of players and combinations that we could acquire and be just as competitive.
 
Release the Kraken said:
[/B]
In my earlier post I mentioned the possible loss of Favors and Hill along with Hayward and then went on to list free agents that could step in to replace them. Porter is the small forward in the bunch.

Kinda surprising that we've done as well as we have sans Hayward in the lineup through the years. Considering that it took the influx of three vets and the iso skills of Joe Johnson in clutch time to reach our first playoffs in five years, all this tank or blow up talk sounds completely absurd from my perspective. Hell Hayward couldn't even make third team all nba this year (his best ever). To be clear, I like Hayward but in my view there are any number of players and combinations that we could acquire and be just as competitive.
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Just because he didn't doesn't mean he shouldn't have. You have a lot of dumb sportswriters who are obsessed with stats picking those teams. DeRozan over Hayward? Sure he scores more but that's it. And Westbrook is overrated in my opinion because he is not a team player, but he will get MVP. He shouldn't even be in the top 10 for that award.
 
stitches said:
If Hayward and Hill both leave(seems like Hill is tied to Hayward, from what he said at exit interviews), I see 3 options really:

1. Retool around Gobert, trying to win as many games as possible - you try to sign players in free agency that will help win right away - Danilo Gallinari, try to trade for Bledsoe using Favors + stuff, opportunistically pluck free agents and other players via trade that will shore up the rotation(Wilson Chandler comes to mind(might have to give up a pick for him), maybe get Lin or Deron or Teodosic as a PG.

2. Rebuild around Gobert - clean everything you can but Gobert for future assets(This would include JJ, Favors, possibly Hood). Give Dante the ball as a PG and tell him it's his team now, let him see what he can do. No stops, no leash, just go berserk, we don't care if he makes a ton of mistakes, we don't care if we lose a ton of games... au contraire - if Dante's PG skills improve while we are losing a ton of games, that's good. Resign Ingles with the idea of selling him for future assets at next trade deadline. Gobert wants bigger offensive role? He want's post ups? Or isos? Maybe the ocasional 3 pointer? Sure... give it to him. Same as with Dante - results don't matter, lets see what he can develop and what he can't, test his limits offensively, especially if it leads to less wins. Try to get the best pick we can. The top of next year's draft seems pretty good. Doncic, Porter Jr... Bamba. Try to get one of the premier ones. If Gobert gets nicked around All-star break... shut him down. Give Bolomboy(or our rookies) the chance to shine. Pick all 4 rookies and give them legit playing time. See what you have in them and if any of them shows surprising developmental spurt or skills.

3. Burn it to the ground (use Gobert to jumpstart the rebuild) - see "Rebuild around Gobert", but in this case in addition to the other moves, trade Gobert for the bank. If Boston for example gives up Fultz + BKN 2018 for Gobert(he's pretty much the perfect missing piece for them, he covers all their weaknesses and makes them strengths - elite rebounding, interior defense, help/weakside defense). Start from zero for the Jazz, but with two high end assets(Fultz + BKN pick) + possibly high Jazz pick in next year's draft).

I honestly have no idea which one I prefer. I think the one that I hate the most is the retool option. I don't think we will be able to retool quickly and well enough to make it worth it. I don't see a retool path that would make us as good as we were this year for the duration of Gobert's contract and in 3 years we will have to start thinking about keeping Gobert, having wasted 3 years of his prime on the tradmill.

In any case, to me Hayward leaving will be devastating for this team. He is not replacable right now, IMO...
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That would be an absolutely terrible mistake to trade Gobert and "burn it to the ground".
 
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