Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
You'd be surprised. It's fantastic. Especially if it's full of Beatles.
I'm sorry, sincerely, for creating a new thread for this...
- Thread starter Dr. Jones
- Start date
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Deleted member 848
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Dude it's totally similar. For Germany it's the Turkish and Eastern Europeans. For America, it's blacks. For Canada, it's the indigenous population.
My family moved to Germany when I was in the 4th grade, and we lived there for the year. We actually moved there on a job-exchange, but we went with the knowledge that if we liked it we would stay permanently-- just because of the proximity to Kosovo, and the thwacks of cousins and friends and other relatives that we had living in the Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Netherlands area. The reason I speak German fluently is because I enrolled in German school here since Kindergarten, in order to prepare for this potential move back one day.
Anyways, I enrolled into school there while my dad started looking for jobs and stuff.
You really, reallly couldn't shake the feeling of being a second class citizen there man. None of my German classmates really approached me at first-- the only friends i ever made that year were Turkish. I was instantly understood as "Albaner" and it just totally bought on different treatment that you could really feel across the board. It's hard to summarize in a few words.
For example, when we were looking for apartment spots, we'd see "vacancy" outside, but then the landlord would swiftly deny us any existence of a vacancy if the apartment happened to be mainly occupied by ethnic Germans. Looks from people whoever you go, particularly if you're going shopping and stuff.
It was just a mega contrast from our family. We went from a city as accepting as Edmonton to Heilbronn, Deutschland-- and it just felt like we'd never really feel as accepted and comfortable as we did in Canada.
We left as soon as we could. Been in Canada ever since.
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Deleted member 848
Guest
I really can't emphasize how disenfranchised that Muslim youth/people feel in Western Europe. It's worse in Eastern Europe, but there aren't as many there purely because the economies of the Western nations are more suitable to economic migrants.
Turkish people legitimately have difficulty getting German citizenship even if they're 2nd or 3rd generation. I was born in Germany and I wasn't able to get my citizenship!! It's not a matter of Turkish youth not wanting to be German-- it's the fact that they feel like they'll never be accepted as such.
Meanwhile, a Turkish immigrant would more or less feel American within a generation or two. It's a different land over here, which is why we can't ppl like Trump destroy that.
Turkish people legitimately have difficulty getting German citizenship even if they're 2nd or 3rd generation. I was born in Germany and I wasn't able to get my citizenship!! It's not a matter of Turkish youth not wanting to be German-- it's the fact that they feel like they'll never be accepted as such.
Meanwhile, a Turkish immigrant would more or less feel American within a generation or two. It's a different land over here, which is why we can't ppl like Trump destroy that.
Thanks for the post and I'm sorry you had that experience.
I've just been trying to understand the root cause of those choosing ISIS.
It seems (as an outsider) that if a group is being treated as second class citizens, having a hard time finding acceptance, much less equality, they would be susceptible to almost anything that promises change in that way.
As I understand it, ISIS has recruiters that bring these guys (and gals) in and initially shows lots of care and concern. They indoctrinate them into a stronger faith of Islam, and then once their faith is strong and they feel they've found their home, they're sucked into the darkness.
I wonder if there weren't such ostracization of those same people if they would resist the pitches of ISIS.
Just trying to understand. It's probably not something that can be fixed in our lifetimes, but understanding the root causes might be a good start.
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Deleted member 848
Guest
you're nailing it. It's a vortex of youth trying to navigate a culture that their parents don't understand, that they never really feel a part of, and sometimes don't know how they'll ever fit in.
Bring in charismatic IS leader, who specialize in captivating these sorts of kids. The disenfranchised children who didn't have strong parental presence, or maybe did but their parents never really got through to them.
At any rate-- as long as Muslims feel like they can never be a part of "the group", they'll be pushed to the point where they feel remorseless if they're committing atrocities against their own people. That's why you always here people saying "Islamophobia leads right into the hands of ISIS", because it is absolutely their #1 recruitment tool.
The problem here isn't the ISIS commanders found in the ME that we can one day wipe out. It's the conditions that allow one opportunistic group after another to get through to these disenfranchised individuals living in Europe, and get them to do their own dirty work. That's why "bombing ISIS" will only be a temporary fix. There is no silver bullet here, I'm afraid.
MVP
Well-Known Member
But isn't it partially their fault as well? So many of them never adopt western values and freedoms and remain rotting in their primitive medieval state of mind. Their treatment of women and gays in particular does not change, and even women themselves while given all equal rights are afraid to embrace it and it seems like they would still ride in the bus separated from men like in Iran. It is refreshing to see muslims like you who I consider modern, and yet almost everyday you will see people who act and behave like they are from 10th century.
D
Deleted member 848
Guest
These people are immigrating from VASTLY different cultures-- it's incredibly unfair to expect them to completely drop their old values off and embrace new ones just by a snap of a finger. People still hang onto relics of their childhood whether intentional or unintentional;
in fact, I bet your kids and grandkids would cringe at some of the posts that you've had here, if they ever read them. I know I have. That's not to say that you're a bad person (you're not) or that you're not a total Canadian through and through (you are).
We need to be patient with immigrants, understand them, and make them feel at home. You know that it's not easy when you first come here-- and you came here as an educated, confident man! Many come as refugees with minimal education, from war-torn regions. All they're thinking about is making enough money to put food on the table, trying to be happy on a day-to-day basis. Yes, the first generation will very rarely leave the values they were raised with-- but it's equally rare for their children to adopt the exact same values as their parents. And even if they do, what's the problem? As long as they're law-abiding, tax-contributing citizens, it's not a big deal.
Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
It's so depressing to think about. I'm sure you're right about all of this, but I always hear that the majority of ISIS victims are in Muslim countries. How does that fit in? The people who kill them aren't being motivated by feeling out of place in Western society. They apparently genuinely believe that their faith is worth dying for, as long as they take enough victims along with them. It's so evil.
MVP
Well-Known Member
I agree with a lot what you say here, and yes it took me some time to get used to quite a few difference here. But here is example - I worked once with a 50 year old female doctor volunteer from Pakistan who was trying to get her licence to practice in Canada. She was not a refugee, they had no problems with money and yet I was shocked when she was proudly explaining how they arranged marriage for her 22 year old daughter here in Canada. She had no problems telling me that it is absolutely normal for parents to decide who their kids are going to marry and that 22 year old daughter had no choice but to accept whatever dude her parents picked to marry.
So, they are law abiding, tax contributing people, so is it a big deal? To me it kind of is.
Weird how you completely neglect that the way that many ppl interpret Islam leaves very little room for tolerance and acceptance of the views and ways of others.
You have parts of families over here who came here at a reasonably early age and where ppl refuse to even learn the language despite there being plenty opportunities before the Syria crisis began.
Speaking of Syria, other Muslims not from Syria are amongst the least helpful groups over here when it comes to supporting refugees.
You've got a situation of envy in between Muslims. Turks vs Syrians vs Iraqi vs Maroccans vs Somali vs Afghans. Ppl fear their support will be reduced in favor of more/new migrants.
The difficulties with obtaining a passport have been changed since you've left. I'm not sure how exactly the new procedure works but I remember reports how the procedures have been changed(The reason that these procedures existed and were very difficult to change in the first place have to do with rules set by the Allies post WW2)
Another interesting topic of discussion are wide spread liberal views concerning homosexuality and role and rights of women within the population and how polarizing those views are perceived within the majority of right wing Muslims.
Integration usually starts in the 2nd and really gains traction in the 3rd generation here as many Turks are from poor areas in Anatolia and come over with a low level of education. Within more educated circles integration is usually way easier as the views they teach their kids make them more prepared to fit in.(Many highly educated and integrated Iranians who fled under Khomeini live here)
Multi ethnic intercultural dialogue is obviously newer here in Germany than a patchwork country like the states and started in the 50s with Italian guest workers and continued in the 60s with Turkish ones.
A lot of ppl are simply not very deliberate how they utilize visual impressions and stereotypical thinking is usually the laziest way to process visual information.
Fun fact: It's still pretty usual here for marriages to be arranged in Muslim communities on the basis of origin. So Afghan+Afghan etc
In my opinion: As long as minorities live in ghettos among themselves like African Americans, Chinese, Russians over in America or Turkish, Russian or mainly mixed ghettos over here; integration, stereotyping are an uphill battle that's really tough to effectively deal with.
But how to break those up?
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MVP
Well-Known Member
And the saddest part in above mentioned example for me is that daughter had no guts to refuse that arranged marriage. She was already in Canada for more than 5 years, she should be able to stand for herself to say no, I will marry the man I love and not what my parents chose, and yet she said nothing.
I'm the least knowledgable one here, but I suspect it's not a one-size-fits-all thing.
In Syria people are more forced into Isis.
In Western Europe they are "loved" into it.
In Eastern Europe I suspect there's more sympathizers than in the others.
But I don't know ****.
Okay this is why America is so great. We have not openly taken in populations yet we still allow them the opportunity to succeed. Look at the Irish the Italians The Asians The Cubans an now the Mexicans. All hated peoples when they came an look how they handled it. They ROSE ABOVE the predominant anglosaxon culture.
Only exception is blacks supposofly because they did not choose to come here. I say anyone willing to uproot there life an migrate for economic opportunity should be welcome with open arms. America has thrived not because we are better then everyone. We thrive because we recruit the worlds best talent who pulls us all up from are bootstraps.
Let us see if [MENTION=848]dalamon[/MENTION] still cannot engage
Only exception is blacks supposofly because they did not choose to come here. I say anyone willing to uproot there life an migrate for economic opportunity should be welcome with open arms. America has thrived not because we are better then everyone. We thrive because we recruit the worlds best talent who pulls us all up from are bootstraps.
Let us see if [MENTION=848]dalamon[/MENTION] still cannot engage
Some GREAT insights there, thanks dala...
One quick question for you (or anyone living in Germany). Why is Angela Merkel pushing so much for Germany to take in so much refugees (mostly Syrian?) if there seems to be such a pushback on minorities and migrants there? Isn't what she or her government is doing is opposite to the sentiment of the people there?
[MENTION=2500]BTP[/MENTION] ???
Read the part about developments and history in my prior posts. Migration was new for both sides.
I mean from a human standpoint you see the dilemma in which millions of Syrians are.
Few feel represented by Assad, others simply had bad luck living in a combat area, the next one may be a bandwagoner who sees it as an opportunity to improve chances to succeed in life and another one may have been convinced by ppl that lead you across the borders that Western Europe is pretty nice and it means easy life(The last part is especially wide spread in Afghanistan - to the degree that Germany rent billboards in Kabul warning about lies of human traffickers)
Nothing is happening in Syria and this conflict is at an impasse. Putin is blocking the UN security council, unless the rest of the world agrees to aid Assad with the operation.
America is currently sick of fighting wars without global support as they are only affected indirectly through the repercussions their trade partners and enterprises experience.
So who's going to set foot in there? none.
Ultimately I think though depending on how short term results in Germany and Sweden are with Syrian/Iraqi/Afghan migrants that Western European countries could decide sending troops and providing aid rebuilding after the war may be cheaper than trying to integrate masses with little cultural overlap.
For Merkel it could be a legacy play, but I'm not sure she foresaw how many ppl would flee and how many others from Iraq and Afghanistan would take on the danger of travelling through a warz one to a harbor/refugee camp in order to pay someone to provide passage.
Imagine she would (have) serve(d) a blueprint for successful integration. But who knows. Maybe she's just trying to be a decent human being and establish values that are only partially shared by the base and especially ppl with migration background.
♪alt13
Well-Known Member
Not german but I'm gunna take a stab anyway
Germany(especially industry) needs immigrant labor and their babies.
[MENTION=2500]BTP[/MENTION]? Do you agree?
In a way definitely. The cost/time to raise kids and be successful yourself is as demanding as in every other 1st world country. But I don't know enough about technological projections and demographics to say that for sure(I'm pretty sure most Politicians who put that out there have no clue either)
To those asking why join ISIS - in another thread I posted a link to an interview with several people very knowledgeable about this - I'll try to find that and repost here. It's well-worth giving a listen.
I'll summarize though: in parts of the M.E., - especially parts of Syria - ISIS is in charge. That means they collect taxes at rates of their choosing, distribute food cards and other favors, haul people off to jail for flimsy charges and possibly release them when fines are paid, etc. so that provides an incentive to join.
Once they join, all recruits go through Shariah training. As someone mentioned above, this training paints Islam in the most beautiful light. The trainers are themselves quite charismatic and engender much love and devotion from their recruits.
One of the last steps in the training that all recruits must accomplish is the beheading of a prisoner. If a recruit isn't already feeling completely fervent towards ISIS before they behead their prisoner, imagine how they feel once they've done this and they actually have blood on their hands.
Plus, they and their families are given some small rewards (monetary and in the form of favors) and promised greater rewards in the future - which may never come but at that point they've sold their soul so it doesn't really matter.
I'll summarize though: in parts of the M.E., - especially parts of Syria - ISIS is in charge. That means they collect taxes at rates of their choosing, distribute food cards and other favors, haul people off to jail for flimsy charges and possibly release them when fines are paid, etc. so that provides an incentive to join.
Once they join, all recruits go through Shariah training. As someone mentioned above, this training paints Islam in the most beautiful light. The trainers are themselves quite charismatic and engender much love and devotion from their recruits.
One of the last steps in the training that all recruits must accomplish is the beheading of a prisoner. If a recruit isn't already feeling completely fervent towards ISIS before they behead their prisoner, imagine how they feel once they've done this and they actually have blood on their hands.
Plus, they and their families are given some small rewards (monetary and in the form of favors) and promised greater rewards in the future - which may never come but at that point they've sold their soul so it doesn't really matter.
It was my impression at the time. I have no idea if it was completely accurate, nor was I suggesting I was an authority. I was a 21-22 year old white American from Utah serving an LDS mission on the east side of England, mostly in cities. I visited London often. This means I spent ALL of my time talking to people of all races and backgrounds about a wide variety of topics. While I was not investigating racism, my statement was based on my observations. I saw how black people were treated while out in public, and it was complete different than at home. I talked to black people and never was told of situations occurring like at home.
I wasn't aware that I was not allowed to make a comment if I didn't back it up with proof of whatever type you need.
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