margodydek
Well-Known Member
Please don't tell me you still honestly believe this.
"In retrospect, King won the Williams' trade in a landslide."
- Thread starter Jeffrey32
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Please don't tell me you still honestly believe this.
margodydek
Well-Known Member
Hey Freak, thanks for taking it easy on me. I really appreciate it. JazzFanz can be a rough place sometimes.
Well, I think some Jazz fans have forgotten that DW has played with a bad wrist for two years and that might have affected his shooting. I have watch DW on the USA team and his shot looks like it did when he played for Utah.
It will be interesting to see what happens in NJ. They will be competitive but are they good enough to beat the Celtics, Heat, or a healthy Chicago team. I do not think so but I have to see them play together before I claim that losers or winners in this trade.
It will be interesting to see what happens in NJ. They will be competitive but are they good enough to beat the Celtics, Heat, or a healthy Chicago team. I do not think so but I have to see them play together before I claim that losers or winners in this trade.
The Bulls and healthy is an oxymoron.
This is idiotic assumption. The guy decided to stay in Nets uniform in spite of his short tenure there and losing more than ever before, yet he wouldn't have stayed in Utah? He got 98 million reasons as opposed to 68 other teams could offer to stay in Utah. That's why he stayed. I don't think it is reasonable to assume he would have left Utah. Yes, there was some risk he would leave. KOC didn't have the balls to take that risk, and that's why he lost big time and Nets won.
Deron is the best PG in the League now that Rose busted his knee. Favors or Kanter are so far away from that, I don't think it is fair to Deron to compare them to him. In his second year Deron was #2 in the League in assists along with healthy point and other averages. The guy is a superstar right now, while Favors and Kanter are a long shot to even have similar careers as AJ and Millsap - you know - our starting C/PF combo, which is still quite young also.
Well, who is better? Rose was, but with tearing 2 tenons in his knee, he will be lucky to be an all star again. It's between Paul and Deron, and argument can be made either way. Westbrook is slightly behind. Irving may surpass him at some point, but as of now, yeah Deron has to be either the best or #2 in the League at worst after Paul.
Well, Favors did get on the court, but couldn't stay on it. He always got into foul trouble and lost starting job to a better player at the position, who is now our starter.
margodydek
Well-Known Member
If he's #2 then there's quite the gap between him and CP3. Just look at what happened to their respective teams when they left, and their new teams when they arrived.
D
Deleted member 848
Guest
Lets not forget the additions of Mo Williams, Kenyon Martin, Caron Butler, and Billups. Even after this, they were only 4 games ahead of the Jazz, and into the playoffs.
Who did the Nets add after signing DWill again? Not to mention the fact that they lost their second best player for the rest of the season. I sincerely doubt that Chris Paul would have led the 2012 Nets to the playoffs. Conversely, I guarantee you that Deron Williams would have lead the 2012 Clippers to a similar record in the Western Conference.
This is a huge year for Dwill though. He hasn't been a top 5 PG the past 2 years. This year he really needs to step up now that he has a team around him. I still think he reached his individual career peak (just like Paul has too) during his Jazz days. I don't see him achieving that offensive efficiency level outside of the Jazz system (both individual and team wise). But the freelance style may help him because he will actually have a wing player to help him with creating offense instead of being relied on 100% of the time.
margodydek
Well-Known Member
Deron's last year here we weren't finishing .500, so how come the season after he left we got better, and NJ ended up in the same spot? Shouldn't they have gotten better (if only slightly) and shouldn't we have done worse?
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
No, actually, assuming he would have stayed in Utah just because he re-signed with the richest owner in the NBA is idiotic. It's so idiotic in fact, it sounds like something that dumbass bluesrocker would say. I sure am glad that ****-fer-brains was banned, don't you agree? Deron is a fantastic player without a doubt, but the Nets got extremely lucky that things played out the way they did. The truth of the matter, is that even with the difference in money, Deron still almost left for Dallas. The Nets are just lucky that Dallas didn't pull off a move for another player that would have put them in a better position to win, or Deron would be gone. Either way, there's a big difference between Deron re-signing with Utah, and signing with a team willing to shell out the crazy money for JJs ridiculous contract. Almost any moron could figure out the difference.
GREAT move by KOC, and no matter how it turns out, Utah is better off than they would have been by losing Deron for nothing.
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Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Do you think Deron can get better endorsements in New York than he can in Utah? Or in Dallas?
Personally, I wouldn't have wanted Deron even if he had promised to stay in Utah for $98M. He was a whiny, &*^%$ who stopped running the plays and quit on his teammates. Utah had the best "Big 3" they could build around Deron with Boozer and Memo and to a lesser extent, Millsap and AK. It wasn't enough to contend. Deron wasn't going to draw Howard to Utah. And Utah will never contend with a MAX-salary PG. Few teams will.
Jazz has ZERO hope of competing with a "Big-3" model. Even IF they could sign 3 players to MAX, or near-MAX deals, Utah will never get the vets flocking to the city to play for the minimum. HAve to go with the model KOC is currently using...surround a young core with solid vets at reasonable contracts (like Marvin, Mo). Then hope a couple of those youngsters develop into all-star quality starters.
The fact Nets owner is rich is irrelevant here. Deron is MAX player for any team, and he can't get paid any more than 98 mil from ANY team in the League. From Utah or Nets. What's relevant is that a team with his bird's rights can pay him 30 mil more than any other team. Given this fact, and the fact he indeed stayed with the team that could offer him the most, in spite of short history with the team and their constantly losing record, it is indeed idiotic to assume he would have left Utah. It's pretty reasonable to say he would have stayed, albeit there was some small risk of losing him. KOC did not take that risk and as a result got absolutely manhandled in this one side traded. Nets took the risk and won the traded by a landslide.
Almost left means he didn't. Yes, that's correct, he did not leave, and hence Nets won the traded by a landslide. Can any moron figure this out? I certainly hope so. I also hope that any moron can see that 30 mil extra (44% more guaranteed money) is a compelling reason to stay, especially for a player soon to turn 30.
Yes, it is better off than losing Deron for nothing. But since we agree that only a complete idiot should have assumed that he would have left for nothing, the move was not all that great. KOC was afraid to take a small risk and got a bunch of bench players to back-up our starters for a superstar. Props to Nets for raping KOC in this trade.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Care to make a poll of that assumption? I think it's probably 80-20 (or higher) believing Deron WOULD have left. He burned almost as many bridges in Utah as Dwight Howard has in Orlando. If you're going to re-sign, you do NOT openly rebel against a coach. You don't stop running plays.
And if you truly ARE going to re-sign if offered the MAX, why not come out and say it? What's the harm in saying, "yes, I hope to finish my career in Utah." You could even say that you know Utah can offer more and it be hard to turn them down if they did so. KOC mentioned that he and Greg had NUMEEROUS meetings with Deron and his agent. And not ONCE did they give any indication Deron wanted to remain in Utah.
It was not a SMALL risk. It was HUGE! And really, that extra year is MEANINGLESS in the long run. Deron will still be a very good PG in 4 years. He'll get another large contract. Besides, he makes a lot more on endorsements by going to a large market. All the owners/GM's for Dallas, New York, Brooklyn, Lakers, etc. needed to say is, "OK, Deron, we realize we can only give you a 4-yr deal and Utah can offer you 5. But you're in your prime and still will be in 5 years. Sign with us and we promise to take care of you in 2017. And BTW, we're backing the truck up to your bank with the maximum we're allowed to pay as a signing bonus. Oh yeah, and we spoke with our advertisers and have already lined up a number of opportunities for you."
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Borat.
One further question for you. Had Deron stayed, what would the team look like right now?
PG - Deron, Watson, Tinsley
SG- Burks, Hayward
SF - Hayward, Howard?, Carroll
PF - Millsap, Evans, ?
C- Jefferson, ?
Do you really think that team has ANY chance of EVER contending?
The team was already in free fall BEFORE Deron was traded. The Jazz started off 27-13, then went 4-13. Without Deron, they then finished the season 8-17. So not much difference from the trend that had already started vs. post-trade.
I'll gladly take the 4 players that we've been able to obtain as a direct result of the Deron trade: Favors, Kanter, Mo Williams, Marvin Williams. And yes, I included Mo because the Nets were so paranoid and DESPERATE to have a winning team for Deron that they panicked when Lopez got hurt and gave us the huge trade exception for our aging center who was on his last legs.
One further question for you. Had Deron stayed, what would the team look like right now?
PG - Deron, Watson, Tinsley
SG- Burks, Hayward
SF - Hayward, Howard?, Carroll
PF - Millsap, Evans, ?
C- Jefferson, ?
Do you really think that team has ANY chance of EVER contending?
The team was already in free fall BEFORE Deron was traded. The Jazz started off 27-13, then went 4-13. Without Deron, they then finished the season 8-17. So not much difference from the trend that had already started vs. post-trade.
I'll gladly take the 4 players that we've been able to obtain as a direct result of the Deron trade: Favors, Kanter, Mo Williams, Marvin Williams. And yes, I included Mo because the Nets were so paranoid and DESPERATE to have a winning team for Deron that they panicked when Lopez got hurt and gave us the huge trade exception for our aging center who was on his last legs.
Either Mo or Marvin could have been had for trade exception. Or even expiring contract of Okur. So, we could have easily had Marvin as well. Or if KOC just matched Portland offer for Wes, we would have had Wes. KOC could have easily managed the team to have a rotation something like this:
PG - Deron, Watson, Tinsley
SG- Hayward, Burks
SF - Marvin, Burks
PF - Millsap, Evans, Marvin
C- Jefferson, Koufos/Fess/Etc...
This is A LOT better than what we have today, and a lot more competitive. And we could use valuable assets we have (Millsap, Hayward, etc) to improve the roster further and get into contention. It’s basically same starting line-up as we have today, except instead of average starter (back-up on a lot of teams) we have a superstar, the best at his position. This is enormous upgrade over what we have today and gets us a lot closer to contention that we are right now. Right now we need a miracle just to get on the level where we could have been if King did not rape KOC in Deron deal.
I like Deron a lot, but you are kidding yourself if 32 year old Deron is going to be able to get 30 mil a year. It is MUCH MUCH better to be 33 with 30 mil extra than 32 without and look for a new contract. It's enormous difference. Yes, there was a risk. But the reward would have been having the best PG in the League over some bench players. A superstar. How long do you think it is going to take for us to get a player like that again? No one will trade us 28 year old superstar, the best in the position for bench players. We would have to get back into lottery and get very very lucky there to have a player like this again. How many years do you think this will take? That's how many years this trade just set us back.
Chris Paul, basically same quality as Deron, just got traded for Eric Gordon, who is younger at 23 and already averaged 22 ppg + lottery picks and scrubs. And everyone said LA Clips still won. We didn't get anywhere near that quality. King plain and simple raped KOC.
The Nets played most of the previous season without Deron, and almost all of last season without Brook Lopez.
The vast majority of the time, the team that gets the best player "wins" the trade if you are so small-minded you have to look at this in such a light.