Is Hayward a victim of reverse racism on this board?

[One Brow]

You are intentionally trying to argue words over ideas.

Words act like river channels. They keeps ideas flowing, but also confine those ideas to a set path. Sometimes, the path that words direct ideas into present a false view of the world. I'm not arguing over words; I'm trying to right the flow of the ideas behind the words.

 

[One Brow]

I couldn't disagree more.

I know. We all get heavily invested in our systemic views, and I certainly don't expect anything I say to change your views.

 

[Stoked]

Words act like river channels. They keeps ideas flowing, but also confine those ideas to a set path. Sometimes, the path that words direct ideas into present a false view of the world. I'm not arguing over words; I'm trying to right the flow of the ideas behind the words.

Based on the way that you yourself view the world. No thank you.

 

[One Brow]

Based on the way that you yourself view the world.

Based on the way that humans actually operate.

 

[Stoked]

Based on the way that humans actually operate.

In your opinion.

 

[One Brow]

In your opinion.

According to the best understanding of how human brains operate from the medical literature, which I accept even while not neccesarily liking it.

 

[Stoked]

According to the best understanding of how human brains operate from the medical literature, which I accept even while not neccesarily liking it.

Lol, so the medical research you are reading tells you that we are all inherently racist? Sounds like hack research to me. I have met numerous people in my life of variosu races that are simply not racist. They just are not. My real world experience tells me that they are not. That includes asians, arabs, whites, blacks, hispanics...

The notion that we are inherently racist is crap. Argue for it all you want but as you said you know I won't be convinced.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

Words act like river channels. They keeps ideas flowing, but also confine those ideas to a set path. Sometimes, the path that words direct ideas into present a false view of the world. I'm not arguing over words; I'm trying to right the flow of the ideas behind the words.

Without actually adressing the rest of my post, the part with the flow and the ideas? Ok, sure.... yea, I'm buying it.

 

[silesian]

onebrow dodging the question

kennykyle: "Racism is an action, not a thought or opinion."

Silesian response: "Is that how it is defined on planet kennykyle?"

Onebrow response: "That's how it is used by people who stody the phenomenon."

Silesian response: "Then it should be very easy for you to provide 3 quotes from scholars of racism that state that racism is purely action, completely independent of thought or opinion.."

One Brow response: "Tell you what: when you show you have given this enough thought to accurately restate what I said, then I'll be happy to oblige."

So, I don't need to accurately restate what you said, Onebrow, I just need to copy and paste it. Or did you not give your post that agreed with kennykyle's definition enough thought? Now, will you oblige, or are you going to find another excuse?

 

[Stoked]

^^^ While I disagree with many of One Brows stances I see him as an intelligent, honest person. I'm not fond of your overly aggressive tone.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Racism is pejorative. I have difficulty believing you can prove otherwise.

What One Brow seems to be confusing is the definitions of bias and racism. They are not the same thing.

Racism itself is not culturally based. Perpetuation of racism does occur if the culture accepts that viewpoint, but racism itself is not culture. Culture is way too complicated to be narrowed into one viewpoint.

Racism is irrational. I've said this before. Bias based in fact is not racism.

 

[One Brow]

Lol, so the medical research you are reading tells you that we are all inherently racist? Sounds like hack research to me. I have met numerous people in my life of variosu races that are simply not racist. They just are not.

It's a case of adding 2+2 to get 4. Here, "brain that relies on cognitive shortcuts" + "culture steeped in racist shortcuts" = "brain that relies on racist shortcuts". No fault or intention is implied.

I can appreciate you have some picture in your head of a "racist", a hood-wearing, cross-burning extremist that is nothing like you or your friends. To you, that's the basis of racism. In your position of priviledge, not seeing other bases of racism has no ill effects. Others, in a different position, are required to see more or suffer the consequences of their blindness.

 

[Stoked]

It's a case of adding 2+2 to get 4. Here, "brain that relies on cognitive shortcuts" + "culture steeped in racist shortcuts" = "brain that relies on racist shortcuts". No fault or intention is implied.

I can appreciate you have some picture in your head of a "racist", a hood-wearing, cross-burning extremist that is nothing like you or your friends. To you, that's the basis of racism. In your position of priviledge, not seeing other bases of racism has no ill effects. Others, in a different position, are required to see more or suffer the consequences of their blindness.

Hahaha. I enjoy talking to you but what a load of crap.

 

[One Brow]

Without actually adressing the rest of my post, the part with the flow and the ideas? Ok, sure.... yea, I'm buying it.

I thought I had already addressed the relevant contents of the rest of your post when responding to others. I certainly don't you to feel overlooked or unvalued; your posts are as interesting and as worthy of a response as just about any other poster.

You want to argue fluff over substance and make it seem like you come off intelligent or a winner in the argument?

Racism is not necessarily a property of a culture but it is more of an ideology that can but does not have to be contained within a culture.
The racist would be somebody that adheres to that ideology. You cannot have racism without racists, well I suppose you could but it would be just an empty theory with no substance. You can have racism with even just one racist.

I see your point in arguing words, but I still do not agree. I still think racism can be a "property" of a single person.

I don't see how arguing fluff makes you sound intelligent. I don't think you can win arguments on the internet, for the most part.

As I have pointed out, think of racism as a property of individuals, as someone that a single person holds to, is one of the coping mechanisms/rationalizations we use to avoid addressing the uses we make of the stereotypes and cognitive shortcuts that are the true foundation of racism. It's a means rto otherize an internal problem. There is no such thing as "just one racist"; I have become convinced that even referring to a person as "a racist" is undescriptive and counter-productive. People can hold prejudices for good or ill; racism requires the system.

Further, you can indeed have racism without people who conciously hold racist opinions. When a police officer interprets the behavior of a light-skinned person as no suspicious, and the same movements in a dark-skinned person as suspicious, that is racism, but almost never in this day and age is it concious racism. When a prosecutor determines the crime by a light-skinned person is a misdemeanor, and the same crime by a dark-skinned person is a felony, that is racism, but almost never in this day and age is it concious racism. When employers hire black with no criminal record at about the same rate as whites with a criminal record, that is racism, but almost never in this day and age is it concious racism. Racism has its own version of inertia, as we pass our cultural shortcuts and assumptions on from one generation to the next.

 

[One Brow]

kennykyle: "Racism is an action, not a thought or opinion."

Silesian response: "Is that how it is defined on planet kennykyle?"

Onebrow response: "That's how it is used by people who stody the phenomenon."

Silesian response: "Then it should be very easy for you to provide 3 quotes from scholars of racism that state that racism is purely action, completely independent of thought or opinion.."

One Brow response: "Tell you what: when you show you have given this enough thought to accurately restate what I said, then I'll be happy to oblige."

So, I don't need to accurately restate what you said, Onebrow, I just need to copy and paste it. Or did you not give your post that agreed with kennykyle's definition enough thought? Now, will you oblige, or are you going to find another excuse?

1) Nothing said by kennykyle, nor by myself, indicated that racism was "purely" action. You added that adjective.
2) When I pointed out that yuou had not read me correctly, you chose to double down on your mis-reading, rather than consider you might have misunderstood something.
3) You seem to think a simple restatement of a conversation you have misunderstood will convince people you did not misunderstand. It does not.

I have no interest in defending men of straw. When I see some sign that you care enough about the discussion to interpret me correctly, or ask for clarification, then I will probably go through the effort of linking to a few people.

 

[One Brow]

^^^ While I disagree with many of One Brows stances I see him as an intelligent, honest person. I'm not fond of your overly aggressive tone.

Thank you.

Hahaha. I enjoy talking to you but what a load of crap.

If I have misunderstood what you picture as "a racist", or missed some ill effects that overlooking racism would have in your life, I apologize for my presumption. I would greatly appreciate a more detailed correction. What is the basis of racism, to you, and what ill effects do you think you would suffer from not seeing racism?

 

[One Brow]

What One Brow seems to be confusing is the definitions of bias and racism. They are not the same thing.

Racism itself is not culturally based. Perpetuation of racism does occur if the culture accepts that viewpoint, but racism itself is not culture. Culture is way too complicated to be narrowed into one viewpoint.

Racism is irrational. I've said this before. Bias based in fact is not racism.

The first sentence may be true, could you elucidate? I agree with the second.

I agree that there is far more to culture than the perpetuation of racism, but I don't think that is a sufficient reason to say racism is not culturally based. What do you consider the basis of racism that is separate from culture?

I agree with your third paragraph entirely.

 

[Stoked]

Thank you.



If I have misunderstood what you picture as "a racist", or missed some ill effects that overlooking racism would have in your life, I apologize for my presumption. I would greatly appreciate a more detailed correction. What is the basis of racism, to you, and what ill effects do you think you would suffer from not seeing racism?

To start with, racism is racism. The only thing that truly varies is the degree to which it may be praticed. You indicate that I only see racism as sever cases. Not true. It can be as simple as someone reffering to a racial group by using racial slurs. They do not have to actively oppose that group. It can be much more subtle than that.

The reason I disagree with your "we are all racists" stance is that my generation and especially the generations that follow mine are much more racial mixed and exposed. There are many more interacial families with racial mixed off spring. People have more and more friends from all walks of life.

My best friend happens to be arabic. I was married to a hispanic woman. My best friend in high school was a black kid. To me they are just them. Not my "black friend". Just my friend. No difference.

That is rapidly becoming more prevelant. Granted there is a long, hard road to go before things truly get better but it is happening.

I base my stance on my lifes experiences. This is what I know to be true by seeing it and a very hands on knowledge. I have been shot at because I am white. No other reason. White guy in the wrong place at the wrong time. No other reason. I have been assaulted over my religion. No other reason. This was over a 7 year period so it was not a weekend or anything that quick. I've had the shoe on the other foot. Where I am the drastic minority. Where I look physically different than almost anyone else. I have been denied entrance to clubs and groups. So yes I know how both sides feel.

I stand here proudly and reject your notion that every member of mankind is racist. Why? because I know those that are not. I hope to be as good as them.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

The first sentence may be true, could you elucidate? I agree with the second.

I agree that there is far more to culture than the perpetuation of racism, but I don't think that is a sufficient reason to say racism is not culturally based. What do you consider the basis of racism that is separate from culture?

I agree with your third paragraph entirely.

Racism, or irrational bias based on one particular phenotype that doesn't actually exist biologically, is based in biology. Humans are biologically inclined to trust, like, and associate with those most similar to them. Culture actually breaks humans from that bias, or it can help perpetuate it. Culture is not the root of racism.

 

[silesian]

final comment.....

Onebrow, I can only comment on what you said, which is that people who study racism believe it to be an action, not a thought or opinion. I gave you several examples of people who study racism that indicates this to be untrue. Since we are both stuck to your convictions here, so not much sense of continuing the discussion.