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Is Obama a Natural Born US Citizen?

Is Obama A Natural Born US Citizen?

  • No, I'm a crazy *** birther

    Votes: 2 8.3%

  • Yes, I'm a blind follower

    Votes: 8 33.3%

  • Maybe, but he's hiding something.

    Votes: 5 20.8%

  • Who gives a rat's ***

    Votes: 5 20.8%

  • Whatever Kicky says

    Votes: 4 16.7%
  • Total voters
    24
  • Poll closed .
LogGrad98 said:
I bow before your obvious intellectual superiority and accept your single-dimensional examples as absolute and total explanation of a multi-faceted and highly complex issue.
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Or you could invest even a modium of effort and explain why my examples were inapplicable to your argument. But you didn't.

Very persuasive.


Oh I also feel bad for you that you cannot imagine what it is like to feel part of a community such that you cannot even fathom for one moment what it means to understand what makes a group of people "tick".
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I do not labor under the illusion that a large and diverse society so universally shares values, motivations, and experiences that they have a common method by which they "tick." That we live in a society that has in many ways been defined by long internal culture clashes (north-south, colonist-colonized, masters-slaves, etc.) makes the claim particularly dubious.

To wit: You and I are both American. I have little faith that you understand what makes me "tick".

Or that you have never had the experience of trying to understand a people foreign to yourself, and come to the realization of the deep significance of another cultural heritage with which you are not familiar.
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You've misunderstood entirely. That's the world I constantly live in. I think of almost everyone else as a varying degree of stranger. Even those to whom we are very close can't possibly understand all of our motivations and complex desires in a totally realized way.

No matter what you put out there, nothing, no scholarly work, can ever take the place of living and growing up in a particular place, region, or country. It cannot give you the same loyalty, understanding, and emotional connection to the people or the place. I could live in germany the rest of my life and never really fully understand the deep cultural impact the second world war had on those people (for one simple example), and the influence it exerts even today. I can read about it. Study it. Observe it. But I cannot really ever live it the way they do.
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Because obviously all Germans have experience WWII and its aftermath in the same way. If Eastern and Western Germans were exposed to very different cultural norms and experiences it would obviously be impossible for them to swear allegiance to the same governmental entity. Obviously all Germans regardless of region or date of birth have experienced that singular event the same way and that's what binds them together as a people. Those alive from 1939-1945 have had exactly the same cultural experience as those born in the 1960s and exactly the same cultural experience as those born after the fall of the Berlin Wall. That's why all Germans obviously have a deep and abiding understanding of all other Germans.

What a devastating point you've made. I am truly humbled.

The same applies, imo, to understanding a culture. Unless you are part of it and have stock in the history and the events that defined that culture, where it has some influence on your life beyond simply the job you have and the schooling you have received, you cannot really know what it is like to be part of that culture.
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And you have taken that conclusion to its logical extreme, to exclude even those who are born outside the country but spend functionally their entire lives here as well as cast doubt on those who are born here but spend lengthy periods of time during their formative years overseas.

Earlier I asked you about a number of edge cases to test your opinion. You took a total pass on all of them so I'm going to ask again with names attached or highly specific scenarios. Do you believe the following people should be eligible to be President:

1. Lisa Murkowski
2. Tim Duncan
3. A person born in America that spends the first 18 years of their life living in American embassies overseas


I do not think it is a stretch to want the person who leads my country to have that type of cultural connection. I feel bad for you if you cannot understand that, for all your super-advanced learning.
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This, of course, is the exact line of thinking that leads to voting along racial and class lines in stratified societies. It is exclusionary and essentialist by nature and the opposite of the ideals of open and free societies in which all men are nominally created equal.

To adopt your rhetoric: I feel bad for you that you are so afraid of the other that you need an elected leader to be as close to you personally as possible in order to feel comfortable.
 
I think the selection criteria for presidential candidates as outlined are just right. No need to mess with them. Anyone who fits that criteria is fine to apply. Believe it or not, in America we are a huge conglomerate of mixed heritages that have blended into a unique culture, so when I say I am happy with anyone that fits that one criteria, it can be someone of literally any cultural heritage in the world, but someone who understands America (in general terms of course, if you can't see what that means, or if it means nothing to you, then I can't help you see it). So if a muslim guy whose grandparents immigrated here from china and whose mother is from kenya wants to be president, I am all for him running. How exactly is that person "as close to me as possible"?

I am also glad you are so open-minded that you would be fine with Osama Bin Laden as president, as long as he got elected, since you can feel comfortable with literally anyone in that chair apparently.




So, facetiousness aside, would you open up the election to anyone, worldwide, who would want to run for President of America? Do you have any stipulations you want to see in a presidential candidate? Why or why not?

Have you ever felt like part of a community or a group that was not based purely in logic and university study? If so why did you feel like part of the group? Was it important to you in any way?

Do you feel anything when you sing the national anthem or any other patriotic song? Would it change the way you felt about that if you knew that we accepted a random businessman from (pick a random country) into the election who had never lived here who was now president-elect? What about if you didn't vote for him? Does it in any way matter to you that you are an American? Does that even mean anything to you or is it just a bunch of people who happen to live in the same general part of the world?


From your answers so far, you have totally dismissed that culture and community and nationality mean anything beyond the current geographical location of residence. You seem to be fine with anyone as president as long as they managed to get elected.

I would be willing to bet that, not just the majority of Americans, but the majority of people in the world would disagree with you.
 
VINYLONE said:
Please explain this one. Can you be a US citizen if you were born on a military base located in Germany? If this is true, I had no idea.
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I was, and yes I am. Military bases are considered US soil. That being said, both my parents are US citizens and when that is the case citizenship is a done deal and I would wager would qualify as a "natural" citizen if it ever came to a Supreme Court ruling.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Do you have any stipulations you want to see in a presidential candidate?
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I just have a few stipulations:

Someone who knows how many states are in the union.
Someone who has a wife/husband who is proud of their country.
Someone who doesn't bow to foreign leaders.
Someone who won't attack the private sector.
Someone who doesn't flipflop every two seconds.
Someone who has a sane energy policy, foreign policy, economic policy.
Someone with leadership skills.
Someone with more interest in serving the citizens of the country than playing golf, or vacationing.
Someone who didn't attend Rev Wright's political rantings for 20 years.
Someone with respect for the military.
Someone who wasn't friends with domestic terrorists.
Someone who didn't fool around with interns.
Someone with a sense of humor.
Someone who isn't a lawyer.
 
Millsapa said:
I just have a few stipulations:

Someone who knows how many states are in the union.
Someone who has a wife/husband who is proud of their country.
Someone who doesn't bow to foreign leaders.
Someone who won't attack the private sector.
Someone who doesn't flipflop every two seconds.
Someone who has a sane energy policy, foreign policy, economic policy.
Someone with leadership skills.
Someone with more interest in serving the citizens of the country than playing golf, or vacationing.
Someone who didn't attend Rev Wright's political rantings for 20 years.
Someone with respect for the military.
Someone who wasn't friends with domestic terrorists.
Someone who didn't fool around with interns.
Someone with a sense of humor.
Someone who isn't a lawyer.
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Soooooo your answer is Mother Teresa? Ah dammit, she bows to foreign leaders. Nevermind.
 
Someone who isn't a lawyer.
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Following decent presidents were lawyers:
John Adams
Jefferson
Madison
Monroe
Jackson
Abe Lincoln
FDR

and about 70% of the presidents we have had were lawyers at one time or another?
 
I never voted for John Adams personally. I disagreed with his stance on horse **** in the streets.
 
I don't buy books until after I read them unless they are ultra rare, but when Jerome Corsi drops a birther book on your birthday, I don't think you can really pass that up. He shouldn't have.....
 
I've heard this whole birther controversy came from the Hillary camp during the primaries, and I know it is still around because the Democrats want it to be.

I don't care about his birth certificate. I'm more curious to see his college paper trail...grades, papers or whatever. No one has the copies of those either.

From snopes:

As far as has been determined, Barack Obama did not produce a formal thesis for his degree at Columbia University; the closest match is a paper he wrote during his senior year for an honors seminar in American Foreign Policy. However, Columbia University has said it did not retain a copy of that paper, Obama spokesman Ben LaBolt has said that Barack himself does not have a copy, and the professor to whom the paper was submitted has said that he no longer has a copy in his possession either.
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I think it would be interesting to read this lost paper dealing with American Foreign Policy.
 
The real question is this: Can you be a natural born citizen if you were delivered via C-section?
 
I always thought Pennsylvania was a fringe state, now we know.
 
Soooooo what happens if he's not a citizen? Do we make Biden our President? Palin?

Yeahhhhh... That won't screw the US over.... We'll just be awesome with one of those two as Pres!

Jeez, some people need to really consider the consequences of their actions. Do you really think that Biden would be better than Obama people?
 
What is supposed to be the difference between a long form and short form birth certificate that makes one more reliable than the other?
 
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