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Is there a plan behind all this?

NCJazz said:
Plan? One of the things that really kill me is for a team not going to win a championship we have Willams, older, and oldest at PG. Please explain whey we have not taken a chance on a young guy. Remember somebody named Matthews who was undrafted.
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Yes, but if the jazz got a young undrafted guy and he started to play well at pg, KOC would tell Ty to bench him so that KOC wouldn't haven't have to pay him alot of money to keep him.:)

KOC is protecting the organization from another Mathews situation. Play aged veterans on one year contracts.
 
IBProfane said:
Here's a telling statistic for this season: the highest +/- for a 4 player combination on the Jazz this year is Tinsley, Carroll, Hayward and Kanter who have posted a collective +51 this season. By comparison, Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka & Sefolosha have posted a +55.
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If the Tinsley/Carroll/Hayward/Kanter combo was going up against other teams starting units this would be a great comparison. Unfortunately this just shows that our bench is stronger than the other teams' which we already know.
 
"The plan" is Milsap and Jeff as tradebait.

I do think the coach adn the front office are in full cahoots. It makes sense to me.
 
It boils down to this.

Over the next three years, what is the games won if
If Jazz play PM, AJ as primary bigs for all three years:

If Jazz play PM AJ as primary bigs until trade deadline, win the risk and get an 'excellent fit' starter in return:

If Jazz play EK, DF as primary bigs from this moment forward?
 
I know there isn't any conspiracy where the GM controls players' minutes directly.
But maybe there is some element to KOC giving Tyrone certain veteran players (Foye, Jefferson, Milsap, Marvin) to limit the time that the young 4 see on the floor. Kind of an indirect method to raise trade value of players you don't want for the future and decrease contract value of players you do want for the future.
 
The plan is to win some games, don't take too many risks, and get to the playoffs. Getting into the playoffs and selling enough tickets to be profitable is a successful season. If we win some playoff games nice. If not, meh, as long as we're churning out a profit.

It's pretty obvious what the plan is. We've seen it many times before.
 
Weezur said:
I know there isn't any conspiracy where the GM controls players' minutes directly.
But maybe there is some element to KOC giving Tyrone certain veteran players (Foye, Jefferson, Milsap, Marvin) to limit the time that the young 4 see on the floor. Kind of an indirect method to raise trade value of players you don't want for the future and decrease contract value of players you do want for the future.
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Hopefully this is the method to the madness.
 
The Thriller said:
The plan is to win some games, don't take too many risks, and get to the playoffs. Getting into the playoffs and selling enough tickets to be profitable is a successful season. If we win some playoff games nice. If not, meh, as long as we're churning out a profit.

It's pretty obvious what the plan is. We've seen it many times before.
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More likely this is the actual method to the madness.
 
IBProfane said:
Here's a telling statistic for this season: the highest +/- for a 4 player combination on the Jazz this year is Tinsley, Carroll, Hayward and Kanter who have posted a collective +51 this season. By comparison, Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka & Sefolosha have posted a +55.
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too few words that tells everything
 
Just read on ESPN that the "working assumption" amoung the GMs of the league is that the Jazz will trade either Big Al or Millsap for a "frontline PG" by the trade deadline.
 
IBProfane said:
Here's a telling statistic for this season: the highest +/- for a 4 player combination on the Jazz this year is Tinsley, Carroll, Hayward and Kanter who have posted a collective +51 this season. By comparison, Durant, Westbrook, Ibaka & Sefolosha have posted a +55.
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In 21 minutes only. Too small sample size.
 
Okay, here's a broadened picture of the +/- statistics I was presenting earlier. I took the top 10 most effective 5 man rotations for the Jazz, and here's how many times each players appeared in those 10 line-ups. The sample size is still relatively small, but between the various line-ups, each player with at least 3 appearances logs more than 50 minutes total, others substantially more.

Gordon Hayward: 7
Derrick Favors: 6
Jamaal Tinsley: 6
Enes Kanter: 5
Marvin Williams: 5
DeMarre Carroll: 5
Paul Millsap: 4
Al Jefferson: 3
Mo Williams: 3
Randy Foye: 3
Earl Watson: 1
Jeremy Evans: 1
Alec Burks: 0
 
IBProfane said:
Okay, here's a broadened picture of the +/- statistics I was presenting earlier. I took the top 10 most effective 5 man rotations for the Jazz, and here's how many times each players appeared in those 10 line-ups. The sample size is still relatively small, but between the various line-ups, each player with at least 3 appearances logs more than 50 minutes total, others substantially more.

Gordon Hayward: 7
Derrick Favors: 6
Jamaal Tinsley: 6
Enes Kanter: 5
Marvin Williams: 5
DeMarre Carroll: 5
Paul Millsap: 4
Al Jefferson: 3
Mo Williams: 3
Randy Foye: 3
Earl Watson: 1
Jeremy Evans: 1
Alec Burks: 0
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I dunno, the biggest argument for me against using +/- to compare bench players to starters is that it doesn't take into account who you're playing against. I mean, Marvin and Foye will see more minutes against guys like Durant and Lebron whereas Gordon sees minutes against your Lance Stephensons...
I think we all agree that our bench is superior to most benches in the NBA though.
 
Weezur said:
I dunno, the biggest argument for me against using +/- to compare bench players to starters is that it doesn't take into account who you're playing against. I mean, Marvin and Foye will see more minutes against guys like Durant and Lebron whereas Gordon sees minutes against your Lance Stephensons...
I think we all agree that our bench is superior to most benches in the NBA though.
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Not true. Gordon has played slightly more games coming off the bench than he has starting but he is also closing out a lot of games. I think there is some value to this.

Also, Corbin plays the starters longer than most coaches during the first quarter. I would also say that guys like Kanter and Favors are playing about half of their time against the starters for the other team. I think that there is some truth to the statistics that IB is displaying.
 
orangello said:
Not true. Gordon has played slightly more games coming off the bench than he has starting but he is also closing out a lot of games. I think there is some value to this.

Also, Corbin plays the starters longer than most coaches during the first quarter. I would also say that guys like Kanter and Favors are playing about half of their time against the starters for the other team. I think that there is some truth to the statistics that IB is displaying.
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True. True.
 
IBProfane said:
Okay, here's a broadened picture of the +/- statistics I was presenting earlier. I took the top 10 most effective 5 man rotations for the Jazz, and here's how many times each players appeared in those 10 line-ups. The sample size is still relatively small, but between the various line-ups, each player with at least 3 appearances logs more than 50 minutes total, others substantially more.

Gordon Hayward: 7
Derrick Favors: 6
Jamaal Tinsley: 6
Enes Kanter: 5
Marvin Williams: 5
DeMarre Carroll: 5
Paul Millsap: 4
Al Jefferson: 3
Mo Williams: 3
Randy Foye: 3
Earl Watson: 1
Jeremy Evans: 1
Alec Burks: 0
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What I've found getting into this stuff is that Foye and Haywad can't play together. Haywad is a great 2 and so is Foye (in the right situation), but playing two 2's together is too easy to exploit from a size standpoint. Haywad might get good enough to guard bigger threes, I dunno. Foye isn't big enough to guard 2's, even though he works his *** off trying. Add an undersized 2 and an undersized 3 and you're asking for trouble. Any other combination of Foye or Haywad with Marvin or Carroll has been pretty damn effective. This is why playing Haywad off the bench has worked so well.

The only other combo that has been noticeably & statistically poor is the Millsap as a three experiment.
.
The easiest way to interpret this is Jazz interior defense is only bad when the exterior defense is before.
 
franklin said:
What I've found getting into this stuff is that Foye and Haywad can't play together. Haywad is a great 2 and so is Foye (in the right situation), but playing two 2's together is too easy to exploit from a size standpoint. Haywad might get good enough to guard bigger threes, I dunno. Foye isn't big enough to guard 2's, even though he works his *** off trying. Add an undersized 2 and an undersized 3 and you're asking for trouble. Any other combination of Foye or Haywad with Marvin or Carroll has been pretty damn effective. This is why playing Haywad off the bench has worked so well.

The only other combo that has been noticeably & statistically poor is the Millsap as a three experiment.
.
The easiest way to interpret this is Jazz interior defense is only bad when the exterior defense is before.
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Or you could watch the games and see jefferson not even trying to stop the guy from getting to the hoop..... true that the perimeter guys get beat, but then al just stands there, alot of the time not even raising his arms up, and almost never fouling the guy to make him earn it from the line and think about going inside next time.
 
fishonjazz said:
Or you could watch the games and see jefferson not even trying to stop the guy from getting to the hoop..... true that the perimeter guys get beat, but then al just stands there, alot of the time not even raising his arms up, and almost never fouling the guy to make him earn it from the line and think about going inside next time.
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How's your one track mind doing today Foggy?
Skip. Skip.
How's your one track mind doing today Foggy?
 
franklin said:
What I've found getting into this stuff is that Foye and Haywad can't play together. Haywad is a great 2 and so is Foye (in the right situation), but playing two 2's together is too easy to exploit from a size standpoint. Haywad might get good enough to guard bigger threes, I dunno. Foye isn't big enough to guard 2's, even though he works his *** off trying. Add an undersized 2 and an undersized 3 and you're asking for trouble. Any other combination of Foye or Haywad with Marvin or Carroll has been pretty damn effective. This is why playing Haywad off the bench has worked so well.

The only other combo that has been noticeably & statistically poor is the Millsap as a three experiment.
.
The easiest way to interpret this is Jazz interior defense is only bad when the exterior defense is before.
Click to expand...

What makes the lineups so tough to work out is that Millsap and Marvin are the only guys on the team with size that can defend the perimeter. Something we are still waiting on with Favs just like Kanter's post offense.

Also the +/- stuff reinforces, it seems, my opinion that closing games with Marvin on the floor would improve the team more than any other one thing lineup-wise. He really helps the rebounding problem in particular.
 
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