^^^
Long time no see Thriller.
Long time no see Thriller.
It's Official: Mormon Founder Joseph Smith had up to 40 wives
- Thread starter HighlandHomie
- Start date
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
It's good to be here. And to able to comment on a story like this. I truly don't understand why polygamy was introduced. And to be honest, based on what little I know about my religion's eternal doctrine, I'm not sure why it ever was introduced. If I were to die right now without being married, had I lived righteously, wouldn't I be given an opportunity later during Christ's reign?
So what was the rush to start practicing polygamy in the 1800s?
You should seriously read that chapter in Jacob. Seriously. It explains it all very clearly.
The Thriller
Well-Known Member
Ok. Arent we on the same page here? This is what I find difficult. In the BOM, polygamy is forbidden. It's an abomination. In the NT? It's not exactly endorsed. Then suddenly it rears its head in the 19th century in D&C?
If polygamy is eventually practiced during the millennium for the blessings of the sealing then fine. Obviously, I doubt there will be an exact even amount of righteous men and women who desire a sealing. Then again, God is God and could create another person to marry and seal that final lone righteous woman who deserves a man. But all of that stuff will come later... Much later... So what's the rush? I just don't understand why there's a push for 50-60 years into terrestrial polygamy.
So how does one justify polygamy after reading this:
And
Hence, why I find this issue very difficult to justify.
Marriage for Jacob= 1 man and 1 woman
Anything else? An abomination, according to this passage.
Furthermore, just how many times have comments or talks made been canonized as revelation? I mean, BY made some crazy remarks about blood sacrifices, race, and the direction of Utah. In the mid 50s and 60s, very powerful leaders like Ezra Taft Benson gave talks about blacks receiving the priesthood, farm subsidies, and politics (you cannot be a good member and vote democrat). His words have been taken as scripture. Look at Doctrine of Salvation and how it was endorsed (declared opposition to the use of ANY contraception)... Then not... By the church.
The point is, how does one know now when a prophet is speaking as a prophet and when is he voicing his opinion? And even after all that, things might change depending on the sociopolitical circumstances (i e polygamy, blacks).
Imo, these are issues that the church could have and should have let be. When the church was first restored blacks did receive the priesthood and polygamy wasn't practiced. Was new revelation truly given or was doctrine polluted by some apostasy? And if it were polluted, then why didn't the lord stop it?
I'm just sayin that these things are hard to rationalize or explain away without falling back on the, "Well trust in the lord... Keep your testimony, eventually you'll know there was a purpose behind all this."
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♪alt13
Well-Known Member
In a way we are living in a polygamist-type society. Having step siblings, half siblings, and step parents is in a way akin to being the child of polygamous parents. Good parents even after a divorce never fully discontinue their relationship with each other. They may stop having a romantic one but that is about as far as they can really sever the connection.
I understand that there are big differences but I think there is probably more things about polygamy that would be somewhat familiar than we may at first realize.
I understand that there are big differences but I think there is probably more things about polygamy that would be somewhat familiar than we may at first realize.
Not even close.
♪alt13
Well-Known Member
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
I stopped going to church when I was 12 because I figured my dad was onto something with the fishing>church idea. Since then, there have been several times when I thought about going back, but I never did, mainly because of the issues of polygamy and bigotry. I'm not conflicted whatsoever that these things happened. Humans make mistakes. I am, however, not only conflicted, but insulted by the attempted justification of such things. I honestly believe the church loses a lot of young members specifically because of this.
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I have an older sister in her 50's, who is a dedicated member of the church. Less than a year ago, we had a conversation as to why many non-members consider Mormonism a cult, and I suggested the main reason was because of polygamy. She quickly dismissed this because she said polygamy didn't come until later. I thought she was extremely naïve to believe that, but I couldn't prove otherwise, so I considered the possibility she could be right.
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Now when I see people saying they believe JS married 40 but didn't have sex except with one woman, I see more rationalization and naivety. Doubt I'm wrong here either. Unfortunately, for those non-members who were on the fence, this info adds creedence to the opinion that Mormonism is a cult started for the purpose of collecting women.
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Even though my sister has always been bright, at least book smart anyway, it seems to me her mind goes places it wouldn't normally if she wasn't trying to rationalize her religion. For example, she once suggested that Bill Clinton may have killed more innocent people than Bush, Jr. Yep, by getting a BJ from someone other than his wife, he influenced millions that wouldn't have otherwise, and enough of those people surely got aids and died, that he possibly killed more than W. I hope to God that isn't a typical view by LDS members. Anyway, considering her opinions on Bill, I would imagine this would absolutely shake her world, if it wasn't for the convenient rationalization that JS didn't have sex because they probably weren't smart enough to avoid unwanted pregnancy back then.
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Finally, I think the church is heading in the right direction, but until they commit to calling a mistake a mistake, people are always going to be conflicted.
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I have an older sister in her 50's, who is a dedicated member of the church. Less than a year ago, we had a conversation as to why many non-members consider Mormonism a cult, and I suggested the main reason was because of polygamy. She quickly dismissed this because she said polygamy didn't come until later. I thought she was extremely naïve to believe that, but I couldn't prove otherwise, so I considered the possibility she could be right.
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Now when I see people saying they believe JS married 40 but didn't have sex except with one woman, I see more rationalization and naivety. Doubt I'm wrong here either. Unfortunately, for those non-members who were on the fence, this info adds creedence to the opinion that Mormonism is a cult started for the purpose of collecting women.
-
Even though my sister has always been bright, at least book smart anyway, it seems to me her mind goes places it wouldn't normally if she wasn't trying to rationalize her religion. For example, she once suggested that Bill Clinton may have killed more innocent people than Bush, Jr. Yep, by getting a BJ from someone other than his wife, he influenced millions that wouldn't have otherwise, and enough of those people surely got aids and died, that he possibly killed more than W. I hope to God that isn't a typical view by LDS members. Anyway, considering her opinions on Bill, I would imagine this would absolutely shake her world, if it wasn't for the convenient rationalization that JS didn't have sex because they probably weren't smart enough to avoid unwanted pregnancy back then.
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Finally, I think the church is heading in the right direction, but until they commit to calling a mistake a mistake, people are always going to be conflicted.
I would be happy to discuss this but don't feel compelled to do so inside this forum. But I got myself one more on the post count.
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
You are assuming all sex includes vaginal penetration. If there was no birth control available, it makes sense that people put some thought into other methods for avoiding unwanted pregnancy. One of which would be pulling out, while another would be choosing to do things other than conventional sex.
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Honestly, though, if it were ever confirmed that he did sex up his other wives, how would people here react? It would make sense to post an opinion on that as well, considering it's a possibility, rather than jumping to the conclusion that he didn't.(not singling you out) It seems kind of important for some people to believe that JS didn't live that way, regardless of the obvious acceptance of Brigham's lifestyle. I can understand why, but it seems like a reach.
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The Thriller
Well-Known Member
I don't think you know what a polygamist relationship is. It's not what you just described. It's not "in a way" a polygamist relationship for people to become divorced and marry other human beings. That's not polygamy.
I'm not sure if you're trolling, relying on anti-Mormon sites for your references, or if you just happened to skip over the salient verse... but assuming the latter, somehow you missed the verse that I was saying explained it very clearly.
Jacob 2:30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people [to practice polygamy]; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
So, no, polygamy is NOT forbidden by the Book of Mormon and people who claim that are ignorant, deceived, or willfully trying to deceive others. Unsanctioned polygamy is, but the caveat is that if the Lord wishes to "raise up seed unto me", then he will command his people to practice is. Interestingly, the "raise up seed" line is exactly what was quoted in heyhey's attic journal:
heyhey said:
fishonjazz
Well-Known Member
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7StraightIsGreat
Well-Known Member
These debates never change any minds. If you thought JS was a prophet before he was found to have 40 wives, you still think he was a prophet. If you thought he was a creep, you now have more ammo.
Personally, coming from a family that was half LDS and half not, 99% of my trepidation towards the church comes from Brigham Young. How members can reconcile with even half the things that came out of that man's mouth is beyond me. Dude was off the rails. Oh, and his football team is ****ty.
Personally, coming from a family that was half LDS and half not, 99% of my trepidation towards the church comes from Brigham Young. How members can reconcile with even half the things that came out of that man's mouth is beyond me. Dude was off the rails. Oh, and his football team is ****ty.
freakazoid
Well-Known Member
Good point. Hard to argue with this.
scootsy
Well-Known Member
Speaking of naive....
Why wouldn't the sex be vaginal? Why would he feel the need to pull out? The man has thousands of followers who believed his words were Gods commands. He justified polygamy to all of them, so why would he need to have any other form of sex than vaginal?
And you honestly think that a man could have sex with forty women for years, impregnating one of them multiple times, but there not be a single pregnancy from any of the others?
I don't care whether or not he had sex with any of them, I personally believe the whole principle of polygamy to be a corrupt deception perpetuated by individuals who let power get to their head.
I believe the BoM to be honest and true, but I believe that the church did not take long to return to apostasy.
No, not currently. Not even in countries where it is legal. It used to be OK in the LDS church, even encouraged of church leaders, but hasn't been permitted since the early 1900s.
I don't get the hung up on the multiple wives thing. Noah and Abraham are clear example of righteous polygamous prophets. Obviously there was a time and place for that. As for what Joseph did or didn't do-- I don't care about the details. My belief is based on the direct influence of God in my life.
You realize of course, that the first university he founded lies in SLC? ;-)
