Jazz and Knicks discussing Donovan Mitchell trade per Shams Charania and Tony Jones

[LogGrad98]

If you don’t add like a few bing bongs and really dumb it down I’m not sure they will get it.

Dear Knicks fans reading this board,

Our logic is based on the following:
- We just got 5 FRP for Rudy Gobert
- The national media guys (who have sources) are saying that Don probably goes for 6 FRP

But, for some reason, your front office that has all of the leverage in negotiations with one of the most ruthless GMs of all time for a player who hasn’t even demanded a trade.

Good luck with that one. I’d love to hear one logical argument that supports any of the nonsense you’re spewing all over the internet. Hey I'm walkin' here!

Does that help?

 

[Elizah Huge]

Does that help?

Yes, but you forgot a Bing Bong or two.

 

[infection]

Yes, but you forgot a Bing Bong or two.

My younger kids always call Ding Dongs Bing Bongs.

 

[LoPo]

My take on all this -

Ainge didn't like anything he saw last year and wanted to burn it to the ground. Quin left because he knew he'd be working with nothing and it could tarnish his coaching record. Ainge then avoided the draft completely. Ainge's first big roster move was to get a draft pick while simultaneously sending a message that nobody was safe. Ainge then shopped around Rudy until he got a deal he wanted and a deal all larger than almost everybody expected.

After those two deals, Ainge could have come to Don and said - "hey Don - we are going to build a vision with you as a focus of it." According to some reports, that was supposedly the plan. Seemed like Hardy was on board with that too. We did, after all, get 3 good players in that Minnesota deal (PG, Beasley and JV). But who knows - those reports could have just been posturing and positive small market "optics" towards the team's remaining star. Not long after those "build around Don" reports, our FO said Don was available.

Could be that Don said he didn't have interest in a rebuild so Ainge then shopped him. I personally feel that if Don refused the organization's attempt to build around him, it would have leaked through the media. After months and months of Andy Larsen and Tony Jones and other reports about "Don eventually wanting out", any sort of refusal by Don's camp would have been leaked by now. People will speculate that CAA might be pulling strings, but the Jazz have more reason to release that Don wants out than they do to keep that quiet. We are, after all, shopping a star at the beginning of his prime even though there is a solid roster with assets still in place. And Don has more reason to leak that he wants out than he does to stay quiet.

So my firm belief is that Ainge wanted to ship out Rudy, Don and anybody else regardless of what Rudy or Don wanted.

Now, our organization has missed any opportunity of building around Donovan Mitchell. No, Donovan didn't force Ainge's hand. This is what Ainge wanted all along. He wanted a blank slate. Coach, then stars then remaining roster.

 

[gomretat]

My take on all this -

Ainge didn't like anything he saw last year and wanted to burn it to the ground. Quin left because he knew he'd be working with nothing and it could tarnish his coaching record. Ainge then avoided the draft completely. Ainge's first big roster move was to get a draft pick while simultaneously sending a message that nobody was safe. Ainge then shopped around Rudy until he got a deal he wanted and a deal all larger than almost everybody expected.

After those two deals, Ainge could have come to Don and said - "hey Don - we are going to build a vision with you as a focus of it." According to some reports, that was supposedly the plan. Seemed like Hardy was on board with that too. We did, after all, get 3 good players in that Minnesota deal (PG, Beasley and JV). But who knows - those reports could have just been posturing and positive small market "optics" towards the team's remaining star. Not long after those "build around Don" reports, our FO said Don was available.

Could be that Don said he didn't have interest in a rebuild so Ainge then shopped him. I personally feel that if Don refused the organization's attempt to build around him, it would have leaked through the media. After months and months of Andy Larsen and Tony Jones and other reports about "Don eventually wanting out", any sort of refusal by Don's camp would have been leaked by now. People will speculate that CAA might be pulling strings, but the Jazz have more reason to release that Don wants out than they do to keep that quiet. We are, after all, shopping a star at the beginning of his prime even though there is a solid roster with assets still in place. And Don has more reason to leak that he wants out than he does to stay quiet.

So my firm belief is that Ainge wanted to ship out Rudy, Don and anybody else regardless of what Rudy or Don wanted.

Now, our organization has missed any opportunity of building around Donovan Mitchell. No, Donovan didn't force Ainge's hand. This is what Ainge wanted all along. He wanted a blank slate. Coach, then stars then remaining roster.

We may never know and you might be right. IMO it has been clear for several years that Donny was not happy in Utah and that he was not here long term. Not sure how anyone could think otherwise as the evidence seems pretty clear. My guess is that Donny wanted out and he and the Jazz kept it on the low down because it is better for both parties.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

From Katz at the Athletic on the NY day to day GM:

Leon Rose is New York’s team president, but he doesn’t do most of the day-to-day trade calls. Most commonly, those are up to vice president of basketball and strategic planning Brock Aller, who oversees salary cap management. Every once in a while, someone else will take the reins, especially when another Knicks higher-up has a solid relationship with an executive in an opposing front office they’re trying to make a deal with.

Aller obsesses over marginal value, which should be refreshing for Knicks fans who remain traumatized from teams of the past needlessly tossing first-round picks into the fireplace. He wants to hold onto picks and acquire others. He notoriously squeezes teams just for the draft rights to an extra player, something that’s far more trivial to most others.

Buckle up... Ainge vs. Aller gonna be a fight.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

From Katz at the Athletic on the NY day to day GM:

Leon Rose is New York’s team president, but he doesn’t do most of the day-to-day trade calls. Most commonly, those are up to vice president of basketball and strategic planning Brock Aller, who oversees salary cap management. Every once in a while, someone else will take the reins, especially when another Knicks higher-up has a solid relationship with an executive in an opposing front office they’re trying to make a deal with.

Aller obsesses over marginal value, which should be refreshing for Knicks fans who remain traumatized from teams of the past needlessly tossing first-round picks into the fireplace. He wants to hold onto picks and acquire others. He notoriously squeezes teams just for the draft rights to an extra player, something that’s far more trivial to most others.

Buckle up... Ainge vs. Aller gonna be a fight.

Is it Ainge vs Aller?

It's probably more like Zanick vs Aller then whenever things get close, it will be Ainge vs Rose.

 

[Jazz Fusion]

Nah, it would be Vic and Scoot most likely. Maybe Vic and one of the twins.

I would not draft Ware #2 as of right now if thats who you talking bout.

Nah, it would be Vic and Scoot most likely. Maybe Vic and one of the twins.

I would not draft Ware #2 as of right now if thats who you talking bout.

I was being sarcastic. Dennis Lindsey’s comments on hand pads and lateral movement measurements have given me permanent draft night ptsd.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Sorry, my comment was a swipe at Dennis Lindsey’s rationale in drafting

I was being sarcastic. Dennis Lindsey’s comments on hand pads and lateral movement measurements have given me permanent draft night ptsd.

lmao you should check out Kel'el Ware though. He's pretty interesting and would probably fit next to Vic.

The Jazz could very well be in a position to draft Vic #1 and Kel'el like 12th or something along those lines.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

My take on all this -

Ainge didn't like anything he saw last year and wanted to burn it to the ground. Quin left because he knew he'd be working with nothing and it could tarnish his coaching record. Ainge then avoided the draft completely. Ainge's first big roster move was to get a draft pick while simultaneously sending a message that nobody was safe. Ainge then shopped around Rudy until he got a deal he wanted and a deal all larger than almost everybody expected.

After those two deals, Ainge could have come to Don and said - "hey Don - we are going to build a vision with you as a focus of it." According to some reports, that was supposedly the plan. Seemed like Hardy was on board with that too. We did, after all, get 3 good players in that Minnesota deal (PG, Beasley and JV). But who knows - those reports could have just been posturing and positive small market "optics" towards the team's remaining star. Not long after those "build around Don" reports, our FO said Don was available.

Could be that Don said he didn't have interest in a rebuild so Ainge then shopped him. I personally feel that if Don refused the organization's attempt to build around him, it would have leaked through the media. After months and months of Andy Larsen and Tony Jones and other reports about "Don eventually wanting out", any sort of refusal by Don's camp would have been leaked by now. People will speculate that CAA might be pulling strings, but the Jazz have more reason to release that Don wants out than they do to keep that quiet. We are, after all, shopping a star at the beginning of his prime even though there is a solid roster with assets still in place. And Don has more reason to leak that he wants out than he does to stay quiet.

So my firm belief is that Ainge wanted to ship out Rudy, Don and anybody else regardless of what Rudy or Don wanted.

Now, our organization has missed any opportunity of building around Donovan Mitchell. No, Donovan didn't force Ainge's hand. This is what Ainge wanted all along. He wanted a blank slate. Coach, then stars then remaining roster.

This could be the case... it also might be the case that after the Quin "unnerved" article they went to Don to be real with him. I think McMahon said something to the effect of "he hasn't requested a trade, but he let them know his preference was to be elsewhere (NY)". It was in a pod somewhere.

IMO what has happened is they both discussed and though the best path forward is to part ways so long as we can get what we need. Donovan plays nice and he gets what he wants if the Knicks pay a fair price. Its why its been so quiet out of Donovan. Its why all the reports are "he hasn't demanded a trade" and "is okay going back to Utah".

Where this gets ugly is Knicks and Jazz don't meet in the middle on something that works. It drags out... does a demand have to come and does it have to get messy. Donovan's image/legacy is perfectly manicured... what happens if it gets a little tarnished? I honestly don't know and would be less concerned by that than he likely is. If it goes into training camp do we finally give up or just keep marching on? Do other suitors emerge? Is the Knicks B package better than the Miami A package?

We also could get really ugly in a tampering investigation... so CAA may want to be cool. They have some inside knowledge but we also might have some dirt. We've seen what they have done in public... what about in private?

I think we in for a long fight unless Dolan/Rose decide that they need to do it now and relent to Danny's wishes.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

My take on all this -

Ainge didn't like anything he saw last year and wanted to burn it to the ground. Quin left because he knew he'd be working with nothing and it could tarnish his coaching record. Ainge then avoided the draft completely. Ainge's first big roster move was to get a draft pick while simultaneously sending a message that nobody was safe. Ainge then shopped around Rudy until he got a deal he wanted and a deal all larger than almost everybody expected.

After those two deals, Ainge could have come to Don and said - "hey Don - we are going to build a vision with you as a focus of it." According to some reports, that was supposedly the plan. Seemed like Hardy was on board with that too. We did, after all, get 3 good players in that Minnesota deal (PG, Beasley and JV). But who knows - those reports could have just been posturing and positive small market "optics" towards the team's remaining star. Not long after those "build around Don" reports, our FO said Don was available.

Could be that Don said he didn't have interest in a rebuild so Ainge then shopped him. I personally feel that if Don refused the organization's attempt to build around him, it would have leaked through the media. After months and months of Andy Larsen and Tony Jones and other reports about "Don eventually wanting out", any sort of refusal by Don's camp would have been leaked by now. People will speculate that CAA might be pulling strings, but the Jazz have more reason to release that Don wants out than they do to keep that quiet. We are, after all, shopping a star at the beginning of his prime even though there is a solid roster with assets still in place. And Don has more reason to leak that he wants out than he does to stay quiet.

So my firm belief is that Ainge wanted to ship out Rudy, Don and anybody else regardless of what Rudy or Don wanted.

Now, our organization has missed any opportunity of building around Donovan Mitchell. No, Donovan didn't force Ainge's hand. This is what Ainge wanted all along. He wanted a blank slate. Coach, then stars then remaining roster.

If that's true, would it be because the locker room was so bad he thought he had to go scorched earth? Burn it to the ground so the contagion is for sure gone?

 

[Udidthizz]

My take on all this -

Ainge didn't like anything he saw last year and wanted to burn it to the ground. Quin left because he knew he'd be working with nothing and it could tarnish his coaching record. Ainge then avoided the draft completely. Ainge's first big roster move was to get a draft pick while simultaneously sending a message that nobody was safe. Ainge then shopped around Rudy until he got a deal he wanted and a deal all larger than almost everybody expected.

After those two deals, Ainge could have come to Don and said - "hey Don - we are going to build a vision with you as a focus of it." According to some reports, that was supposedly the plan. Seemed like Hardy was on board with that too. We did, after all, get 3 good players in that Minnesota deal (PG, Beasley and JV). But who knows - those reports could have just been posturing and positive small market "optics" towards the team's remaining star. Not long after those "build around Don" reports, our FO said Don was available.

Could be that Don said he didn't have interest in a rebuild so Ainge then shopped him. I personally feel that if Don refused the organization's attempt to build around him, it would have leaked through the media. After months and months of Andy Larsen and Tony Jones and other reports about "Don eventually wanting out", any sort of refusal by Don's camp would have been leaked by now. People will speculate that CAA might be pulling strings, but the Jazz have more reason to release that Don wants out than they do to keep that quiet. We are, after all, shopping a star at the beginning of his prime even though there is a solid roster with assets still in place. And Don has more reason to leak that he wants out than he does to stay quiet.

So my firm belief is that Ainge wanted to ship out Rudy, Don and anybody else regardless of what Rudy or Don wanted.

Now, our organization has missed any opportunity of building around Donovan Mitchell. No, Donovan didn't force Ainge's hand. This is what Ainge wanted all along. He wanted a blank slate. Coach, then stars then remaining roster.

Good to see you back. Place isn’t the same without you, for better or worse

You could be right. I think Ainge is pragmatic. Plan A is obviously trading Don now and I expect that to happen, but he won’t trade him just to trade him. If he can’t get what he wants now, he’ll try to make some other moves. Maybe he wasn’t necessarily looking to trade Don, but saw the haul Rudy delivered and only then decided to see what Don could bring.
I do think Don isn’t an Ainge type player. Don is closer to an Isaiah Thomas type player than a Tatum, Brown or Smart.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Is it Ainge vs Aller?

It's probably more like Zanick vs Aller then whenever things get close, it will be Ainge vs Rose.

I think Ainge has set the price... I think JZ is obviously managing a lot of day to day stuff. I think Aller is going to dig in (no reason to relent for him) unless Rose or Dolan are like "stop being a douche and worrying about pick protections and nerd ****... time to close it up".

I think it has to get to the Ainge vs. Rose stage (which yeah... of course it has to go there). But based on the article right now its Ainge's super high price and patience vs. Aller digging in on the details and squeezing value... what has to happen is Aller gets out of the way. There is really no reason for him to stick his neck out and say "let's give it all up" unless he truly thinks they will lose Donovan... even then it will be Rose's *** on the line.

 

[LogGrad98]

My take on all this -

Ainge didn't like anything he saw last year and wanted to burn it to the ground. Quin left because he knew he'd be working with nothing and it could tarnish his coaching record. Ainge then avoided the draft completely. Ainge's first big roster move was to get a draft pick while simultaneously sending a message that nobody was safe. Ainge then shopped around Rudy until he got a deal he wanted and a deal all larger than almost everybody expected.

After those two deals, Ainge could have come to Don and said - "hey Don - we are going to build a vision with you as a focus of it." According to some reports, that was supposedly the plan. Seemed like Hardy was on board with that too. We did, after all, get 3 good players in that Minnesota deal (PG, Beasley and JV). But who knows - those reports could have just been posturing and positive small market "optics" towards the team's remaining star. Not long after those "build around Don" reports, our FO said Don was available.

Could be that Don said he didn't have interest in a rebuild so Ainge then shopped him. I personally feel that if Don refused the organization's attempt to build around him, it would have leaked through the media. After months and months of Andy Larsen and Tony Jones and other reports about "Don eventually wanting out", any sort of refusal by Don's camp would have been leaked by now. People will speculate that CAA might be pulling strings, but the Jazz have more reason to release that Don wants out than they do to keep that quiet. We are, after all, shopping a star at the beginning of his prime even though there is a solid roster with assets still in place. And Don has more reason to leak that he wants out than he does to stay quiet.

So my firm belief is that Ainge wanted to ship out Rudy, Don and anybody else regardless of what Rudy or Don wanted.

Now, our organization has missed any opportunity of building around Donovan Mitchell. No, Donovan didn't force Ainge's hand. This is what Ainge wanted all along. He wanted a blank slate. Coach, then stars then remaining roster.

My bet is he shopped Rudy and Don and took the biggest deal either could generate to start with. It happened to be Rudy, and at the same time the Knicks showed serious interest in DM. Then when the Rudy trade was announced it changed the terms of the deal with the Knicks (they would be expected to pony up even more) hence lengthening the process.

 

[LogGrad98]

lmao you should check out Kel'el Ware though. He's pretty interesting and would probably fit next to Vic.

The Jazz could very well be in a position to draft Vic #1 and Kel'el like 12th or something along those lines.

Do they know it is supposed to be spelled Kal-El?

 

[mellow]

It’s 6:48am and I am here, checking this **** for more than the first time today. I don’t work until noon.

Somebody call somebody.

Here's a call that could be made ...​

​

Utah Crisis Line​

The University of Utah sponsors a free and confidential help and support line for any and all mental health or substance abuse issues, available 24/7, and the phone number is 1-800-273-8255.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

My bet is he shopped Rudy and Don and took the biggest deal either could generate to start with. It happened to be Rudy, and at the same time the Knicks showed serious interest in DM. Then when the Rudy trade was announced it changed the terms of the deal with the Knicks (they would be expected to pony up even more) hence lengthening the process.

I also think if you were considering trading Donovan to NY and keeping Rudy you could do 2-3 picks plus Barrett and hope RJ is good enough to replace some of Don's offense and changing up some of our defense on the wing.

The whole "he has to get more than he got for Rudy" narrative is weird to me. Like what an acceptable trade for KD and Donovan was before the Gobert trade is no longer valid. Its a comp but these aren't houses or commodities.

I think we did the "we want everything" price and they were like "how about 1 of our picks then 4 protected ones and a couple young guys" and Danny said "I'm going golfing and boating call me when you are serious.".

To me at least 3 Knicks picks have to be unprotected to make it work. We also need at least 2 of their other picks (some may not convey so I need some assurances if that happens if I'm ainge). I would prefer to get Toppin, Grimes, and Rose/Reddish as the salary ballast... but I would settle for Toppin/IQ/Fournier (can likely send him elsewhere). McBride and second rounders can be sweetners. Ainge's bar is likely a little higher but if it comes to training camp and that is what we got I wouldn't be shocked.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The big question to me in all of this is... what is Herro worth in a trade? If Orlando ponies up the two extra picks they own for him from Chicago and Denver is that enough to make the Heat offer viable? Is there a team that loves him? He is a really polarizing player apparently, but if you look at production I think its wild to just have the majority of the league agree Barrett is better than him. Is there a team that would give two good picks for him and another protected first or solid young player?

Toronto/Orlando/Cleveland/Dallas are teams with multiple firsts that I could see having interest.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The big question to me in all of this is... what is Herro worth in a trade? If Orlando ponies up the two extra picks they own for him from Chicago and Denver is that enough to make the Heat offer viable? Is there a team that loves him? He is a really polarizing player apparently, but if you look at production I think its wild to just have the majority of the league agree Barrett is better than him. Is there a team that would give two good picks for him and another protected first or solid young player?

Toronto/Orlando/Cleveland/Dallas are teams with multiple firsts that I could see having interest.

The other question is can Miami grab a pick using both or either of Strus/Lowry? It may just be posturing but Jake Fisher iirc said Herro has some fans in the Utah front office (also heard Herro would likely embrace the opportunity to be more of a focal point).

3 Miami picks unprotected + 3 unprotected pick swaps + 1 bonus pick from somewhere + Jovic + Herro or whatever he brings in a trade... its not horrible. I'd see how far you could get it down the road then leak the **** out of it to NY... they have to beat it... not match it.

 

[Elizah Huge]

The other question is can Miami grab a pick using both or either of Strus/Lowry? It may just be posturing but Jake Fisher iirc said Herro has some fans in the Utah front office (also heard Herro would likely embrace the opportunity to be more of a focal point).

3 Miami picks unprotected + 3 unprotected pick swaps + 1 bonus pick from somewhere + Jovic + Herro or whatever he brings in a trade... its not horrible. I'd see how far you could get it down the road then leak the **** out of it to NY... they have to beat it... not match it.

I will die on the hill of wanting Herro.

Herro + Jovic + 23/27/29 unprotected 1sts + 24/26/28 pick swaps + an extra pick from somewhere else is super solid to me if the Knicks are playing hard ball.