Jazz are mediocre and on track to remain mediocre unless they make good moves

[infection]

I think I heard Spence Checkets say on the radio that the Jazz big plan is to improve within. They are counting on the youth they drafted improving to the point where they would be a contender. If they can't improve that much, we could experience years of mediocrity. The big problem of relying so much on the improvement of the drafties is that they will probably leave when their deals are up. Who would want to stay in a place that prefers playing undeserving veterans. I think the Jazz are content with being in the middle of the pack.

"Internal improvement" has been the buzzword with the FO for quite a while. The funny thing is that the way they've structured things they've ensured that internal improvement cannot happen unless there's some type of addition via subtraction. They've given no indication, directly, indirectly, or through their actions, that they are even considering addition by subtraction.

 

[Revolution 9]

But is he really a better option than Carrolle?Is he a better option than Foye?

I believe if you gave Burks 30 mins a night like Foye got you'd get more production overall. You wouldn't get the 3 pt shooting, but you'd get the same or more points, more rebounds, and better defense. It's a question of what is more important to you now, and in the long term.

But that is the problem though Greg. Who knows what we really have.

Carrol is a nice energy guy, and we've needed that hustle to spark our team. Are we really going to lose our #12 pick, and go with Carrol, Foye and Williams long term?
We give these guys, and Hayward playingtime to play through the pains, grow, and develop. They get to play through mistakes, and have bad games. Burks is getting shafted.

 

[LunaticWolf]

I believe if you gave Burks 30 mins a night like Foye got you'd get more production overall. You wouldn't get the 3 pt shooting, but you'd get the same or more points, more rebounds, and better defense. It's a question of what is more important to you now, and in the long term.

But that is the problem though Greg. Who knows what we really have.

Carrol is a nice energy guy, and we've needed that hustle to spark our team. Are we really going to lose our #12 pick, and go with Carrol, Foye and Williams long term?
We give these guys, and Hayward playingtime to play through the pains, grow, and develop. They get to play through mistakes, and have bad games. Burks is getting shafted.

Where exactly, has he shown that he would play any semblence of defense? This year he has been consistently beat off the dribble, and definitely doesn't fight over screens.

Yes, the Jazz are average (6-7-8 seed) right now. Anyone that thought anything different coming into the season is a blind fan, or a negative nellie.

That said, KoC and company have a track record of improving their assets year to year. Thus, we are not on track to remain that way. We have many assets that can be used to create something more. But they are not likely to be used today, tomorrow, or the next day.

So be ****ing patient, and quit ****ing whining about every little thing that ****ing happens you mother****ers.

That is all.

 

[doubledribble]

Kanter + Favors, if both continue to develop, could become a contender-level front court, on par with Gasol and Bynum.

There are many contender-level front courts in the NBA. The Lakers won the championships not because of Gasol or Bynum, but because of Kobe. And we do not have a Kobe, a Dirk or a Shaq. End of story.

 

[infection]

So be ****ing patient, and quit ****ing whining about every little thing that ****ing happens you mother****ers.

That is all.

We've been patient. We were patient with the same team for 3.5 years until it culminated in our HOFer coach quitting mid-season and shipping our franchise player out of town for two guys that now two years later are able to get good minutes only when injury presents itself.

 

[Harcher]

Sometimes you have to look a bit farther than the obvious to see what others (the Jazz management) is up to. It's not obvious to play Favors over Milsap and Kanter over Big Al. The reason is that Sap and Al have to remain attractive for the purpose of trade bait. You've all stated this at one point or another, but as the Lunatic stated above, you have to have some patients. The ideal scenario is that Al and/or Sap can be parlayed into a complementary player to DF and EK. There are two paths to arrive at that - trades or letting them expire and getting FA who replace their level of productivity at similar price tag. The trade can land you a current productive player or a bit of a dog+high draft pick. As someone noted above, some teams are starting to get nervous/antsy to make trades; the market will start to open up. Big Al and Sap and the Jazz in general must be playing well at trade deadline for any chance of 'landing a big one.' Landing a big one is a patient man's game.

Are Mo/Ma/Foye tradeable? If so then there are two reasons to give them as much time as they have. First is the tradebait, second is that they really are auditioning for a job longer term here.

The only item i can't see some reason (might not be the RIGHT reason) is that of Burks. He's shown enough last year and summer league to get some time in my opinion. So other than his countance looking like a combination of dissappointment and pride - which indicates he's in the doghouse in some form, i don't have any logic as to why he's not playing some. Maybe it is that the Jazz know what they have in him and have him locked up for another year. So maybe right now the plan is all about tradebait and tryouts. If they can parlay that work (tradebait and tryouts) into 1 more well fitting excellent player and a well fitting role player, then it is worth it.

 

[infection]

Sometimes you have to look a bit farther than the obvious to see what others (the Jazz management) is up to. It's not obvious to play Favors over Milsap and Kanter over Big Al. The reason is that Sap and Al have to remain attractive for the purpose of trade bait. You've all stated this at one point or another, but as the Lunatic stated above, you have to have some patients. The ideal scenario is that Al and/or Sap can be parlayed into a complementary player to DF and EK. There are two paths to arrive at that - trades or letting them expire and getting FA who replace their level of productivity at similar price tag. The trade can land you a current productive player or a bit of a dog+high draft pick. As someone noted above, some teams are starting to get nervous/antsy to make trades; the market will start to open up. Big Al and Sap and the Jazz in general must be playing well at trade deadline for any chance of 'landing a big one.' Landing a big one is a patient man's game.

Are Mo/Ma/Foye tradeable? If so then there are two reasons to give them as much time as they have. First is the tradebait, second is that they really are auditioning for a job longer term here.

The only item i can't see some reason (might not be the RIGHT reason) is that of Burks. He's shown enough last year and summer league to get some time in my opinion. So other than his countance looking like a combination of dissappointment and pride - which indicates he's in the doghouse in some form, i don't have any logic as to why he's not playing some. Maybe it is that the Jazz know what they have in him and have him locked up for another year. So maybe right now the plan is all about tradebait and tryouts. If they can parlay that work (tradebait and tryouts) into 1 more well fitting excellent player and a well fitting role player, then it is worth it.

I'm not a big fan of when the apologetic defense stands on hypotheticals.

 

[Harcher]

I'm not a big fan of when the apologetic defense stands on hypotheticals.

I'm asking a question essentially to get some understanding of what reasons the jazz would have to do what they are doing? And for those of us who run businesses, we play out the hypotheticals, with as much fact as possible, and then make a business risk. Those who examine all the angles, do best. Nobody bats a 1000 on their bets, but those who can evaluate the potential outcomes of the hypotheticals do pretty good.

Most of the arguments in this thread are akin to "Jazz managagemetn just wants to be mediocre" "Corbin is clueless." etc. It is possible these are true. I doubt these are the case.

So what about your view is not hypothetical?

 

[infection]

I'm asking a question essentially to get some understanding of what reasons the jazz would have to do what they are doing? And for those of us who run businesses, we play out the hypotheticals, with as much fact as possible, and then make a business risk. Those who examine all the angles, do best. Nobody bats a 1000 on their bets, but those who can evaluate the potential outcomes of the hypotheticals do pretty good.

Most of the arguments in this thread are akin to "Jazz managagemetn just wants to be mediocre" "Corbin is clueless." etc. It is possible these are true. I doubt these are the case.

So what about your view is not hypothetical?

The hypothetical I'm talking about is that 'the Jazz could trade these guys for x, y or z." The Jazz have never played someone to showcase their talent for trade. This is not the style (and I don't disagree). The problem is is that we're grasping at this to explain baffling game-decisions. Last year we kept saying we were playing Bell and Howard to showcase them for a trade. This was not the case. We were playing them, apparently, because we thought they put us in the est position to win, as evidenced by Howard being reinserted to the starting lineup after being injured in the playoffs. The Jazz don't allocate playing time based off hypotheticals (trades), they allocate playing time off what they think will make us competitive and no matter how hard it is to swallow, this is honestly the low we've sunk to. We are playing Al and Paul big minutes, and sitting Favors and Kanter, not because we're showcasing for trade, but because we think we haven't hit our peak with this team and we want to see that unfold.

The best way to sum it up is that it's a lot like walking out of a gas station with a lottery ticket and someone approaches you offering $5k for the ticket and your first thought is, "but what if this is the winner?" I believe this is our fear. This team does have talent and could put together some good runs. But, like all teams, none really achieve their full potential. Thus, we would be slow to deal under the fear of, "but what of this team is it and just needs more time?" The problem we don't acknowledge is that with past teams (i.e. when we tried this for four years with Boozer and Williams) we didn't have two tickets, so to speak. We have a future sitting on the bench. These are talented guys, not CJ Miles and Kyrylo Fesenko.

 

[Harcher]

The hypothetical I'm talking about is that 'the Jazz could trade these guys for x, y or z." The Jazz have never played someone to showcase their talent for trade. This is not the style (and I don't disagree). The problem is is that we're grasping at this to explain baffling game-decisions. Last year we kept saying we were playing Bell and Howard to showcase them for a trade. This was not the case. We were playing them, apparently, because we thought they put us in the est position to win, as evidenced by Howard being reinserted to the starting lineup after being injured in the playoffs. The Jazz don't allocate playing time based off hypotheticals (trades), they allocate playing time off what they think will make us competitive and no matter how hard it is to swallow, this is honestly the low we've sunk to. We are playing Al and Paul big minutes, and sitting Favors and Kanter, not because we're showcasing for trade, but because we think we haven't hit our peak with this team and we want to see that unfold.

The best way to sum it up is that it's a lot like walking out of a gas station with a lottery ticket and someone approaches you offering $5k for the ticket and your first thought is, "but what if this is the winner?" I believe this is our fear. This team does have talent and could put together some good runs. But, like all teams, none really achieve their full potential. Thus, we would be slow to deal under the fear of, "but what of this team is it and just needs more time?" The problem we don't acknowledge is that with past teams (i.e. when we tried this for four years with Boozer and Williams) we didn't have two tickets, so to speak. We have a future sitting on the bench. These are talented guys, not CJ Miles and Kyrylo Fesenko.

got it. I guess i'm not so much "apologetic" as i am in denial that it is this...

 

[NUMBERICA]

Infection: killing right now.

 

[NUMBERICA]

To quickly add, most superstars get a chance not because they force their way onto the court, but that management gives them early and frequent opportunities. The path that John and Karl took to superstardom and the HOF is a pretty rare one, and it's frankly alarming that the Jazz think that that is the only path of development (as further evidenced by the embarrassment of how Sloan handled Deron in his rookie year [and very conceivably planted a poisonous seed very early in the process]).

 

[vj_74]

The more things change, the more they remain the same. Havent we seen this thread a gazillion times in the past 5 years in various forms and with various titles?
Jazz have 4 legit lotto picks that they drafted and a couple(?) more players obtained from other teams who were also lotto picks. If despite all this, this is going to be a middle-of-the-pack team then what does it say about our talent scouting/development? You have 4 guys on the team who were top 10 picks, you expect atleast a couple of them to be making a lot of noise (borderline all star) in their second or third years.

 

[Revolution 9]

Where exactly, has he shown that he would play any semblence of defense? This year he has been consistently beat off the dribble, and definitely doesn't fight over screens.

I guess we are seeing two different things Wolf. I haven't seen a lock down defender, but I've seen someone giving effort. I like what I see in limited samples. Take the LA game at home for example, he got right in Kobe's face and drew and offensive foul. He did a great job really effort wise, but being thrust in that situation. Another spot game he got mins in was Houston. He came in and had to guard Martin. Kevin drew a foul a hit a shot or two on him even though Burks was playing him hard. After that he settled down, and really controlled Martin even though
they were obviously trying to pick on him.

You just pulled out the weakest part out, ignored his scoring, Foye's inconsistent play, and tried to make a point.

We disagree Wolf. Staying the course won't get us anywhere. Completely throwing your lotto pick out of the rotation
is risky.

 

[salo]

gonna go with wolf on this. burks hasn't blown me away with his defense or even his defensive effort.

the sample is certainly limited this year but unfortunately i don't think he's doing enough to warrant more minutes most of the time.
people talk about him being a scorer but i'm seeing a guy who always looks like he's out to get his.

frankly, our team doesn't need that right now. there are better offensive options whatever unit he's playing with and he needs to get with that program.
possibly that's part of the reason he isn't seeing the court, but i couldn't say for sure.
i do know that other 'scorers' in our system have been crucified by fans as chuckers for far less shots per minute but for some reason burks gets a 30 page thread of unconditional support.

anyway, i hope the kid gets his game together and starts making the most of his opportunities. demarre has forced his way into consistent playing time on the back of what i would consider a far inferior skill set overall. foye's ability to shoot the long ball is the only thing guaranteeing him minutes at this point and that's probably fair enough given we desperately needed outside shooting this offseason. take him out of the equation altogether and we start looking a bit shaky. despite the holes in his game foye would be good for 20 mins off the bench even on a good finals team.

as to the opening post, i would agree with some of the player evaluations. mo would be perfect for us in a jason terry (mavs era) type role. favours probably isn't going to be an all-star but should be very useful. kanter will be an effective big for years to come but still has a long way to go. marvin could be replaced by a first round pick in most drafts. either al or millsap could be solid starters/contributors on a very competitive team but we need something better than both as our first option if we want a run at a championship.

overall, i'm not disappointed or thrilled with our season so far. we're sitting about where i expected. the young guys are coming along slowly. we still can't win on the road. i think the jazz are trying to stay competitive and develop their young guys at the same time and only time will tell how successful we've been. i don't know how this forum would react if we actually traded our veterans, went with the young guys and spent a couple of years in the lottery like okc did. i don't think people would enjoy that as much as they think they might.

 

[fishonjazz]

gonna go with wolf on this. burks hasn't blown me away with his defense or even his defensive effort.

the sample is certainly limited this year but unfortunately i don't think he's doing enough to warrant more minutes most of the time.
people talk about him being a scorer but i'm seeing a guy who always looks like he's out to get his.

frankly, our team doesn't need that right now. there are better offensive options whatever unit he's playing with and he needs to get with that program.
possibly that's part of the reason he isn't seeing the court, but i couldn't say for sure.
i do know that other 'scorers' in our system have been crucified by fans as chuckers for far less shots per minute but for some reason burks gets a 30 page thread of unconditional support.

anyway, i hope the kid gets his game together and starts making the most of his opportunities. demarre has forced his way into consistent playing time on the back of what i would consider a far inferior skill set overall. foye's ability to shoot the long ball is the only thing guaranteeing him minutes at this point and that's probably fair enough given we desperately needed outside shooting this offseason. take him out of the equation altogether and we start looking a bit shaky. despite the holes in his game foye would be good for 20 mins off the bench even on a good finals team.

as to the opening post, i would agree with some of the player evaluations. mo would be perfect for us in a jason terry (mavs era) type role. favours probably isn't going to be an all-star but should be very useful. kanter will be an effective big for years to come but still has a long way to go. marvin could be replaced by a first round pick in most drafts. either al or millsap could be solid starters/contributors on a very competitive team but we need something better than both as our first option if we want a run at a championship.

overall, i'm not disappointed or thrilled with our season so far. we're sitting about where i expected. the young guys are coming along slowly. we still can't win on the road. i think the jazz are trying to stay competitive and develop their young guys at the same time and only time will tell how successful we've been. i don't know how this forum would react if we actually traded our veterans, went with the young guys and spent a couple of years in the lottery like okc did. i don't think people would enjoy that as much as they think they might.

So just keep giving foye his 30 minutes per game and he will become the allstar that this team so desperately needs right?

 

[Qman]

The more things change, the more they remain the same. Havent we seen this thread a gazillion times in the past 5 years in various forms and with various titles?
Jazz have 4 legit lotto picks that they drafted and a couple(?) more players obtained from other teams who were also lotto picks. If despite all this, this is going to be a middle-of-the-pack team then what does it say about our talent scouting/development? You have 4 guys on the team who were top 10 picks, you expect atleast a couple of them to be making a lot of noise (borderline all star) in their second or third years.

Henry Abbot had an article on this a while back-

Basically players that use a lot of possessions poorly in the beginning of their career tend to use them well later.

 

[gregbroncs]

I don't think he should play more than Foye but Foye is clearly playing more than he should. Cut some of those minutes and give them to Burks. At least he showed he improved his shooting in pre-season.

All of our vets are playing too many minutes. Jefferson, Millsap, Foye, Mo, Tinsley, Watson, and Marvin are all playing too many minutes IMO. Favors, Kanter, Burks and maybe even Hayward should be playing more.

 

[fishonjazz]

All of our vets are playing too many minutes. Jefferson, Millsap, Foye, Mo, Tinsley, Watson, and Marvin are all playing too many minutes IMO. Favors, Kanter, Burks and maybe even Hayward should be playing more.

Most of us agree with this.... too bad corbin does not.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

The way the Jazz develop their players is more gradual than just throwing them into the fire. The Jazz did a pretty decent job of giving Deron Williams, AK, Memo and Boozer ample opportunity to become star players. It's ultimately up to those players themselves to want it and to develop their games. Right now, I think the FO is just trying to get good value for Al and Millsap in trades if they can and, at the same time, making the young players earn their minutes on the floor. Al and Sap have been in rumors for a year. It's like a retailer trying to move out the old product at a good price before bringing in the new merchandise, or a private equity investor protecting the value of his portfolio of assets.

The front office made a strategic shift after their experience in 2007 - 2010. They had maxed out DWill and AK intending for them to be the two premier talents on the team, and they brought in Boozer and Okur to complement them. However, the Jazz kept getting punked by the Lakers' twin-towers. Since then, the Jazz committed themselves to getting talented bigs at the top of the lottery. I'd be pretty sure they still want to add young talent. What happened last year with Houston and Golden State tanking out of the playoffs probably threw a wrench in the Jazz's plans. The Jazz really, really wanted Lillard and probably would have taken a player like Barnes, Ross, Lamb, PJII, etc. if they had the chance.

So at this juncture, the FO has to decide if they're committed to bringing in elite young talent to round out the team, or if they're going to continue this wayward vet strategy to keep the team at their current level. I think they still want young talent. If they could trade Jefferson in a deal that includes a nice lottery pick, I think they'd do it definitely. There are a few teams that could do this.

Those who think the Lakers' recent championships were because of Kobe need to remember that the Lakers were a #7 and #8 seed getting bounced in the first round prior to the Gasol trade and prior to Bynum developing. That was when Kobe was playing at an MVP level.

I'd still take a flyer on Derrick Williams, btw if he's available in a trade. I also think Terrence Jones could be a good Lamar Odom-type player and replace what Millsap does.