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***jazzfanz official us mass shootings thread***

Hantlers said:
At some point, people have to start taking responsibility for their own actions, and quit looking to other people to fix it. We don't have a gun problem, we have an honor problem.
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fixed


exhibit A

from Websters

1a : good name or public esteem : reputation
b : a showing of usually merited respect : recognition <pay honor to our founder>

2: privilege <had the honor of joining the captain for dinner>

3: a person of superior standing —now used especially as a title for a holder of high office <if Your Honor please>

4: one whose worth brings respect or fame : credit <an honor to the profession>

5: the center point of the upper half of an armorial escutcheon

6: an evidence or symbol of distinction: as
a : an exalted title or rank
b (1) : badge, decoration (2) : a ceremonial rite or observance <buried with full military honors>
c : an award in a contest or field of competition
d archaic : a gesture of deference : bow
e plural (1) : an academic distinction conferred on a superior student (2) : a course of study for superior students supplementing or replacing a regular course

7: chastity, purity <fought fiercely for her honor and her life — Barton Black>

8a : a keen sense of ethical conduct : integrity <a man of honor>
b : one's word given as a guarantee of performance <on my honor, I will be there>

Bold is listed 8 in the dictionary.
 
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I know there are tons of laws regarding CC Viny. I'm talking about streamlining them and having one standard. That when a person gets on it is recognized in all 50 states. One the requires shooting and proficiency in handguns.

Why is securing the border laughable? Because DC won't do it? Politics. Never said it'll be easy but it is possible. A place to start would be in forcing the dept of Interior and the Forrest Service into allowing Border agents access to lands they control.

As for mental health checks. I'm talking about being admitted for mental health. Not going to a shrink. Then what I'd want is it to prevent you from walking out of the store with one while a more thorough review is done to ensure that ongoing mental health is not an issue.

I agree about the illegal guns. But if we never start we will never finish.
 
fishonjazz said:
use em for food? go to a grocery store.

guns are made for killing.

is there anything else out there that half of americans own that is made specifically for killing?
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Tobacco.
 
Stoked said:
I know there are tons of laws regarding CC Viny. I'm talking about streamlining them and having one standard. That when a person gets on it is recognized in all 50 states. One the requires shooting and proficiency in handguns.

Why is securing the border laughable? Because DC won't do it? Politics. Never said it'll be easy but it is possible. A place to start would be in forcing the dept of Interior and the Forrest Service into allowing Border agents access to lands they control.

As for mental health checks. I'm talking about being admitted for mental health. Not going to a shrink. Then what I'd want is it to prevent you from walking out of the store with one while a more thorough review is done to ensure that ongoing mental health is not an issue.

I agree about the illegal guns. But if we never start we will never finish.
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Your idea is a decent one but what you want is for OC/ CC to become federal law and I just don't see that happening especially with states like California and New York. Hell, you currently can't get states that both support CC and have laws saying so to agree on things. Some CC permits are NOT honored in other states.

The decision to immigrate illegally into this country has for the most part always been an economical one...for both sides. The idea that you can have enough men and devices to covers every single mile of the border to the north and the border to the south is, again, laughable. You're underestimating the vastness of the border as well as the drive of the people. If they want to get over, they will get over. It's not about gaining access, it's about seeing the situation for what it is.

In my opinion, the only way to stop illegal immigration is to cut off the economics of the equation. The jobs. And the only way to do this is through a concerted effort of fining the companies that higher them. When it comes to these companies hitting them in the pocketbooks is what would stop them from hiring these folks. But that will never be done as it's not a politically popular idea.

Mental health checks? I have no idea what you're talking about. Admitting who for mental health? Preventing someone from leaving the store? Again, what the **** are you talking about? No offense, but these ideas sound like they're coming from a 15 year old.

I think we can all agree, all of us, that what we want is a world without violence. But we all know that is not going to happen. So we aim for it. We strive to achieve it even though we know it's unattainable. I think today is better than it was 10 years ago. Across the board. All violence is down. Don't believe me? (https://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/07/nation/la-na-nn-gun-crimes-pew-report-20130507) Check the FBI statistical abstracts. Hell, here in LA crime has been down for decades. https://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Los-Angeles-California.html From my understanding the lowest its been since the 1950's. https://shq.lasdnews.net/CrimeStats/cms1_189076.pdf Divorce is down across the board though less people are getting married. Folks are more tolerant. I don't know, I see the world getting better not worse.
 
I spoke about DGU's earlier in this thread...

Here's just a few from the last few days:

https://tbo.com/pasco-county/port-richey-homeowner-shoots-at-intruders-one-injured-20140611/ (FL 6/11)
https://www.abc22now.com/template/inews_wire/wires.regional.oh/2df3239a-www.abc22now.com.shtml (OH 6/11)
https://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/local/lancaster-police-investigate-deadly-shooting-apart/ngJLx/ (SC 6/11)
https://fox4kc.com/2014/06/10/dad-a...ho-confront-teen-daughter-outside-their-home/ (MO 6/10)

All over this country people are defending themselves from criminals. Some have to shoot while others use the inherent deterrent effect of the firearm they own to save themselves. I could never under any circumstance support taking someone's right to defend themselves.
 
Stoked said:
As for mental health checks. I'm talking about being admitted for mental health. Not going to a shrink. Then what I'd want is it to prevent you from walking out of the store with one while a more thorough review is done to ensure that ongoing mental health is not an issue.
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You'll miss your mark if that is your path to prevention, since the left has made the rights of nutjobs their cause, it is difficult to get someone committed until they try to actually harm themselves.

But we also have the problem of psychotropic drugs pushing mild nutjobs into raging nutjobs.
 
AM not sure where you were lost with my reply on mental health checks.

example: Guy walks into a guns tore and wants to buy a handgun. They run a background check and it flags him as having been admitted into a mental health facility. So he cannot leave the store with the weapon. His background check must go through a more in depth check to see exactly what it was for. Depending on the frequency, reasons and when he was last in a mental health facility he will be approved or denied and told to go get his weapon.

That help?

As for the economics and illegal immigration. Sounds good. Add actual enforcement against companies who hire illegals to the list of things. It is very easy to not hire an illegal immigrant. Social Security has a way to verify SSNs for employeers
 
PearlWatson said:
You'll miss your mark if that is your path to prevention, since the left has made the rights of nutjobs their cause, it is difficult to get someone committed until they try to actually harm themselves.

But we also have the problem of psychotropic drugs pushing mild nutjobs into raging nutjobs.
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what is a psychotropic drug?
 
PearlWatson said:
any drugs that deal with brain chemicals...most common is those that affect serotonin levels (SSRI)

Common SSRI drugs:
Zoloft
Prozac
Paxil
Celexa
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thanks for the answer
 
PearlWatson said:
You'll miss your mark if that is your path to prevention, since the left has made the rights of nutjobs their cause, it is difficult to get someone committed until they try to actually harm themselves.

But we also have the problem of psychotropic drugs pushing mild nutjobs into raging nutjobs.
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True or false; a person with an iron deficiency should take iron supplements, and/or eat more foods high in Iron?
 
ElRoach0 said:
True or false; a person with an iron deficiency should take iron supplements, and/or eat more foods high in Iron?
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I see where you are going, but as someone who has been through the diagnosis process for what amounts to PTSD and clinical depression I can tell you there is no definitive blood test for brain chemicals as is there is for iron. Not even close or anything that provides any useful information as to the balance of those chemicals. Also the general "balance" of brain chemicals can be different person to person and different amounts can have drastically different effects person to person. If 2 people are low on iron they will generally show exactly the same symptoms, the same results will show up on a standard blood test and adding iron will generally have exactly the same effect. Absolutely not true of psychotropics.

If it were that simple then this would never have been a part of the discussion to begin with.


edit:

I am not saying that doesn't mean people shouldn't get help, because they absolutely should. This is, imo, one of the biggest travesties of our modern society which is the tendency to look down on and stigmatise these very real and serious issues. I am just pointing out that mental health is nowhere near that cut and dried and going through the trial-and-error method to find a drug that works can and does push people further into the problem. A problem that can result in increase suicidal or homicidal tendencies in people that you otherwise may reasonably not expect such behavior from.
 
LogGrad98 said:
I see where you are going, but as someone who has been through the diagnosis process for what amounts to PTSD and clinical depression I can tell you there is no definitive blood test for brain chemicals as is there is for iron. Not even close or anything that provides any useful information as to the balance of those chemicals. Also the general "balance" of brain chemicals can be different person to person and different amounts can have drastically different effects person to person. If 2 people are low on iron they will generally show exactly the same symptoms, the same results will show up on a standard blood test and adding iron will generally have exactly the same effect. Absolutely not true of psychotropics.

If it were that simple then this would never have been a part of the discussion to begin with.


edit:

I am not saying that doesn't mean people shouldn't get help, because they absolutely should. This is, imo, one of the biggest travesties of our modern society which is the tendency to look down on and stigmatise these very real and serious issues. I am just pointing out that mental health is nowhere near that cut and dried and going through the trial-and-error method to find a drug that works can and does push people further into the problem. A problem that can result in increase suicidal or homicidal tendencies in people that you otherwise may reasonably not expect such behavior from.
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Yet. Nowhere near that cut and dry, YET.

But you do have a point going with the concept of trial and error being dangerous. And I get that. But with appropriate, experienced health professionals prescribing those meds based on your personality and psych tests, it's a much better than 50/50 chance they're going to prescribe the right medications. Do not assume a person is walking into a casino, gambling their mental health away. It's dramatically better than that.
 
ElRoach0 said:
Yet. Nowhere near that cut and dry, YET.

But you do have a point going with the concept of trial and error being dangerous. And I get that. But with appropriate, experienced health professionals prescribing those meds based on your personality and psych tests, it's a much better than 50/50 chance they're going to prescribe the right medications. Do not assume a person is walking into a casino, gambling their mental health away. It's dramatically better than that.
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I would be curious where you are getting the better than 50/50 chance, or do you mean eventually? My psychiatrist informed me that the average person will try between 3 and 7 different drugs before finding one that both controls the symptoms of whatever ailment they are working on, and has side effects the individual finds manageable. I am on my 6th such, and it took 3 pretty bad experiences to find the first one that worked for me, that one lasted a while, then stopped working, the next lasted a few months. My current med has been working well for over a year so I am hopeful, but transitioning between meds can be very hard, and there is no guarantee how long it will work. Obviously it is different person to person, but that is kind of the point.

And to bring it back to topic, I think anyone with an active prescription should go through a more thorough background check for purchasing a gun. I know that I had a time when I gave all my guns (not very many, couple of handguns, couple of rifles, shotgun, etc.) to my dad for safekeeping while I worked through my main issues and found a med that worked for me.
 
LogGrad98 said:
I would be curious where you are getting the better than 50/50 chance, or do you mean eventually? My psychiatrist informed me that the average person will try between 3 and 7 different drugs before finding one that both controls the symptoms of whatever ailment they are working on, and has side effects the individual finds manageable. I am on my 6th such, and it took 3 pretty bad experiences to find the first one that worked for me, that one lasted a while, then stopped working, the next lasted a few months. My current med has been working well for over a year so I am hopeful, but transitioning between meds can be very hard, and there is no guarantee how long it will work. Obviously it is different person to person, but that is kind of the point.

And to bring it back to topic, I think anyone with an active prescription should go through a more thorough background check for purchasing a gun. I know that I had a time when I gave all my guns (not very many, couple of handguns, couple of rifles, shotgun, etc.) to my dad for safekeeping while I worked through my main issues and found a med that worked for me.
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I'm sorry. Let me state it out more specifically:

There's a much better than 50/50 chance that the medication you're given will not cause you to lose control and shoot up a school.

Every medicine I've tried (admittedly, I'm not on my 7th) I've felt different. Only once with one medication did I feel any truly disturbing side effects(enhanced aggression). The rest all had a positive effect on me, and although not all were "the perfect drug for me", did not make my life worse.
 
ElRoach0 said:
There's a much better than 50/50 chance that the medication you're given will not cause you to lose control and shoot up a school.
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If that is the real chance that is far from reassuring.

We ain't sure of the odds of the drugs pushing one over the edge just that regulatory warnings include things like:

"Suicidal ideation, violence, mania, hostility, aggression, psychosis, self harm, harm to others, impulsive or disturbing thoughts"
 
Stoked said:
AM not sure where you were lost with my reply on mental health checks.

example: Guy walks into a guns tore and wants to buy a handgun. They run a background check and it flags him as having been admitted into a mental health facility. So he cannot leave the store with the weapon. His background check must go through a more in depth check to see exactly what it was for. Depending on the frequency, reasons and when he was last in a mental health facility he will be approved or denied and told to go get his weapon.

That help?

As for the economics and illegal immigration. Sounds good. Add actual enforcement against companies who hire illegals to the list of things. It is very easy to not hire an illegal immigrant. Social Security has a way to verify SSNs for employeers
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The next guy that needs mental help doesn't want to end up on a "damaged list" so he does not seek help.
 
PearlWatson said:
If that is the real chance that is far from reassuring.

We ain't sure of the odds of the drugs pushing one over the edge just that regulatory warnings include things like:

"Suicidal ideation, violence, mania, hostility, aggression, psychosis, self harm, harm to others, impulsive or disturbing thoughts"
Click to expand...

And with every medication you're typically started on the lowest possible dose. Your doctor advises you of these risks, judges the risk/reward and finds that the risk is worth it. They also advise you to seek help immediately if these behaviors manifest themselves.
 
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