Jesus drank wine, can it really be that bad?

[margodydek]

Because alcohol is more harmful?

I'm not sure what this question is really asking, but my original thought that dealt with cocaine and alcohol was meant to say that cocaine is a more addictive substance.

And when I refer to heroin, it's meant to suggest "shooting up", which is much more addictive than taking a single percocet. In one of my college courses we learned about heroin and the statistic that jumped out to me was that the rate of people who shoot up heroin again after trying it for the first time is 100%.

 

[northeast]

I take it that are not counting the people who die the first time.

 

[margodydek]

I like JFFR's comments. I also think that the we are given commandments like this to show that our spirit is stronger than our body. We're all carnal in nature. We all need to eat. We all feel the need to procreate. And I think the majority of mankind would probably appreciate the feeling of being a little buzzed every once in a while. By making it a life goal to abstain from these things (except of course the procreating thingy while legally married) we show that our spirit has overcome our carnal desires.

 

[Gameface]

I believe there is some disagreement as to what "wine" was in the Bible. Some people see wine as the fermented alcohol containing wine we see today. Others see wine as unfermented or fresh wine, which could be what we call grape juice or something close to it. There has been research on the definition of wine. Today it is seen as the fermented grape juice. As early as 40 years ago definitions of wine included fermented and unfermented grape juice as wine.

The Latin vinum as used in biblical texts also contains boiled wine and sweet wine as definitions, and both types are unfermented.

The Greek word oinos while believed by many to mean only fermented grape juice, is referred to by Aristotle... "though called wine, it has not the effect of wine, for it does taste like wine and does not intoxicate like ordinary wine". Paipas, a Christian Bishop of Hierapolis who lived close to the apostolic age said "vines will grow each with... ten thousand clusters on each twig, and ten thousand grapes in each cluster, and each grape when crushed will yield 25 jars of wine [oinos]." While he was talking about his thoughts on the millennium it is telling that the grapes only need crushed to get the wine.
I have more on the Hebrew Yayin as well as scriptural passages that could be explained if desired.

My second point has to do with the LDS Word of Wisdom.
Doctrine and Covenants 89:3
3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.

This is given for everyone, but with the weakest of all saints in mind.

This last point is in regards to Silencer's post.

Doctrine and Covenants 58:26
26 For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is acompelled in all things, the same is a bslothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.

Basically use your brains and judgement. Don't wait for a command to come down from the heavens before you stop doing something that is bad or bad for you. Don't wait for a prophet to tell you to do something good before you do it. Your brain is there for a reason, use it.

Decaffeinated coffee is also called coffee, but when people talk about drinking coffee they're talking about the stuff with caffeine in it. Wine existed because it had alcohol in it and it is slightly acidic which prevents all known pathogens from living in it. It has saved millions of lives because of that fact. When someone is talking about drinking wine I would assume that unless they specified they were talking about the alcoholic beverage. Non-Fermented wine would have been highly susceptible to bacterial infection, not to mention wild yeast which lived on the skins of the grapes themselves. Store grape juice for any amount of time back then and you've got an alcoholic beverage on your hands soon enough.

 

[Nate505]

The Word of Wisdom was first given as advice, it wasn't until the 1920's or 30's that it became a requirement to obey it to enter the temple. Unfortunately Mormon's developed a superiority complex for being teetotalers. I 100% accept the revelation and I 100% believe there are blessings I get for following it, but I refuse to believe someone who smokes or drinks alcohol is a sinner (if they abuse drugs, then its probably a sin.)

Interesting. Is it just a legal thing? Both tobacco and booze are drugs.

 

[Stoked]

Interesting. Is it just a legal thing? Both tobacco and booze are drugs.

For me personally I cannot see God denying a good man/woman who lived all of Gods' laws entrance into heaven becasue they smoked.

 

[Nate505]

Well, one believes that God put plant life on earth in the first place then I don't know why he'd care about any drug, as the vast majority are just plant derivatives.

 

[margodydek]

For me personally I cannot see God denying a good man/woman who lived all of Gods' laws entrance into heaven becasue they smoked.

Margo's about to get religious here. Here is my opinion on "heaven": I believe in a God who is perfectly just, while at the same time being perfectly merciful. I believe said God has given us certain commandments as a way for us to show whether we are worthy or not to return to his presence.

I do not believe in an "all-inclusive" heaven. By that I mean, I do not believe that God draws a line in the sand and says, "OK, all of you who kept at least 51% of my commandments, you all get into Heaven. The other 49% - tough luck but you have to watch Jordan push off on loop for the rest of eternity"

As I said before, I believe in a God who is perfectly just, which means that I believe everyone gets what they deserve. Someone who was 99% percent obedient in this life will have a "different" heaven than someone who kept 83% of all the commandments. That's not to say that they will all be seperated, but their "glories" will not be the same.

Not sure if any of that makes sense.

 

[Scat]

Well, one believes that God put plant life on earth in the first place then I don't know why he'd care about any drug, as the vast majority are just plant derivatives.

Lame argument.

 

[margodydek]

Well, one believes that God put plant life on earth in the first place then I don't know why he'd care about any drug, as the vast majority are just plant derivatives.

Most Christians believe we're being tested in some way or another by God, so it makes sense that there would be temptations here. For example, most Christians believe in abstinence unless legally wed. However, most of us are raring to go by the age of 13. If you believe in God, then you believe he made us this way for a reason - most likely to test us.

 

[colton]

Decaffeinated coffee is also called coffee, but when people talk about drinking coffee they're talking about the stuff with caffeine in it.

I don't think so. As far as I know, decaf coffee is still considered to be against the Word of Wisdom.

 

[kwb]

What I believe in is odd to others who go to church. Ironic.

 

[colton]

For me personally I cannot see God denying a good man/woman who lived all of Gods' laws entrance into heaven becasue they smoked.

If they smoked, they wouldn't be living all of God's laws now, would they? ;-) (At least not from an LDS perspective.)

But I understand what you're talking about. The problem with that way of thinking, is that you could make the case for ANY sin. "I can't see God denying a good man/woman just because they [insert sin here]."

The problem with *that*, of course, is that everyone sins. That's where faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ comes in, along with repentance and being forgiven of sin.

Also worth mentioning, is that I believe that we will be judged on who we've *become* more than on what we've *done*. (But of course our actions form our character.) See this talk by Dallin Oaks from 2000: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2000/10/the-challenge-to-become?lang=eng

 

[Gameface]

I don't think so. As far as I know, decaf coffee is still considered to be against the Word of Wisdom.

I just meant that in general if someone says they had a cup of coffee they mean they drank caffeine. If they had decaf they would say decaf.

Yeah, so my understanding is that all hot beverages are against the WoW? Is that true?

 

[Nate505]

Lame argument.

I'm agnostic so anything biblical doesn't hold much water to me, other than general life lesson parables. But hey, I don't believe that some all powerful being put all plant life on earth and don't know why if that being did why that being would put plant life that has psychoactive properties. I don't have to reconcile the two.

 

[margodydek]

I'm agnostic so anything biblical doesn't hold much water to me, other than general life lesson parables. But hey, I don't believe that some all powerful being put all plant life on earth and don't know why if that being did why that being would put plant life that has psychoactive properties. I don't have to reconcile the two.

You realize you're talking to the same people who believe that God put two people in a garden and said, "See this tree I made? Don't eat any of its fruit!"

 

[addictionary]

Follow your conscience, be a good man/woman. Alcohol won't change the sacred effects of these, if you don't harm anyone or yourself. Religions are the way for deviant people to return to the God's way. Do that yourself. And drink for joy. It might still be a sin, but it's way better than drowning in dishonesty. If it bothers you that much, then don't do it Because you'll harm yourself psychologically this time.

 

[Deleted member 848]

Jesus was a 5au5-baw5555 (cannot believe we banned the guy).


Interestingly enough, alcohol was not made completely prohibited towards the beginning of Islam either (as far as I remember). However, it was then revised in the time of Muhammad (pbuh) (again, as far as I know) due to some of the destruction that alcohol abuse sometimes created among families.


Regawwwdless, one should never really judge a person based on whether he drinks, or smokes, or anything of that nature. Different sets of morals, beliefs, and faiths work for different people, and as long as an individual chooses the path that he/she thinks leads them to become the best possible person they can be, then I imagine that the gates of heaven might be rather forgiving. Well, at least I think so.

 

[colton]

Yeah, so my understanding is that all hot beverages are against the WoW? Is that true?

No, the church's official interpretation is that the phrase "hot drinks" used in the revelation refers specifically to coffee and black tea (presumably because that's what "hot drinks" would have meant to Joseph Smith). Hot chocolate, herbal tea, etc., are not prohibited.

 

[Scat]

No, the church's official interpretation is that the phrase "hot drinks" used in the revelation refers specifically to coffee and black tea (presumably because that's what "hot drinks" would have meant to Joseph Smith). Hot chocolate, herbal tea, etc., are not prohibited.

You and I had a discussion about this and your interpretation was that white and green tea should also be avoided as they are made from the same leaves as black tea.