Jesus drank wine, can it really be that bad?

[nightmare3983]

I read the first page of this thread, don't have time to read the rest but I thought I'd respond. Please read, you might enjoy!

I've heard and given the mormon bs answers of "not as strong alcohol" and "wine was more pure than water." There might be some truth to them, but they are ridiculous and miss the main point. The truth is, Jesus drank alcohol, he probably got buzzed. I'm definitely okay with that. We believe when Jesus Christ returns we will drink wine with him and I'm pretty sure there will be alcohol in it.

The Word of Wisdom was first given as advice, it wasn't until the 1920's or 30's that it became a requirement to obey it to enter the temple. Unfortunately Mormon's developed a superiority complex for being teetotalers. I 100% accept the revelation and I 100% believe there are blessings I get for following it, but I refuse to believe someone who smokes or drinks alcohol is a sinner (if they abuse drugs, then its probably a sin.)

My singles ward bishop was telling a story about how a few years ago they tore down one of the old stake centers in SLC. When they ripped out the stage they found a bunch of old, broken whiskey bottles underneath it. Turns out that after ward activities the Elder's quorum used to get drunk and would entertain themselves by "bowling" the whiskey bottle under the stage and hearing them crash.

Mormons used to drink alcohol. Joseph Smith drank alcohol and it wouldn't shake my testimony if he drank it after he received the word of wisdom (because when he received the revelation, it was not a commandment, it was advice. I believe it was Heber J Grant or someone else that made it a commandment.)

The modern day prophet says we shouldn't drink alcohol. I believe he gets revelation from God. Just because he tells me that its not okay to drink alcohol right now, doesn't mean I should judge people from different time periods to that same standard. (I'm not sure I'm driving my point home... what I'm trying to say is that if for some crazy reason the prophet said "Don't eat apples during August 2012" that doesn't mean all of a sudden it was a sin to eat an apple in Jesus's day. People do similar things with coffee and caffeine. They read way too much into what the prophet says. We are told not to drink coffee and tea and be wise it everything else we put into our bodies... some people get all passionate about not drinking any Coca-cola... not even caffeine free! Well... if thats what they decide for their life, good for them! But if they start holding other people to that standard, then they are idiots )


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Anyway, I hope that makes sense, is straightfoward and not offensive. Some LDS people are unreasonable and some grasp onto easy answers way too much.

Best post of the thread.

 

[colton]

You and I had a discussion about this and your interpretation was that white and green tea should also be avoided as they are made from the same leaves as black tea.

True.

 

[dipship31]

Margo's about to get religious here. Here is my opinion on "heaven": I believe in a God who is perfectly just, while at the same time being perfectly merciful. I believe said God has given us certain commandments as a way for us to show whether we are worthy or not to return to his presence.

I do not believe in an "all-inclusive" heaven. By that I mean, I do not believe that God draws a line in the sand and says, "OK, all of you who kept at least 51% of my commandments, you all get into Heaven. The other 49% - tough luck but you have to watch Jordan push off on loop for the rest of eternity"

As I said before, I believe in a God who is perfectly just, which means that I believe everyone gets what they deserve. Someone who was 99% percent obedient in this life will have a "different" heaven than someone who kept 83% of all the commandments. That's not to say that they will all be seperated, but their "glories" will not be the same.

Not sure if any of that makes sense.

You've imagined a worse hell than I could've ever thought, well done.

 

[Stifle Tower]

You've imagined a worse hell than I could've ever thought, well done.

Enough to keep ME on the straight and narrow.

But I think true hell is what Chicago Cubs fans live every year. Probably causes most of them to drink things that are a lot strongter than wine.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Interesting takes all around ..

 

[Julie Greengiant]

red wine is awful, white wine isn't bad

wrong wrong wrongity wrong

 

[Julie Greengiant]

and let's not fail to mention that the word of wisdom as written is vague as hell

and that both coffee and wine have major health benefits

 

[DutchJazzer]

jesus had the cure for the disease called alcoholism. he was curing the world back then. but when he died for our sin the cure for alcoholism was lost forever so yeah now wine drinking is BAD mkay

 

[Xsy]

Of all the crazy, unthinkable things that happen in the Bible, you were mostly concerned about Jesus's wine consumption?

 

[jazzyapma]

Many believe that the wine Jesus drank was not an alcoholic beverage but simply the juice of grapes, or other fruits. Stewed fruit drinks like compote, sherbet or lemonade which are common drinks consumed with food in Middle East.

 

[Brown Notes]

Jesus could turn water into wine, sugar into cocaine, wheat into marijuana, and vitamin pills into amphetamines.

 

[PearlWatson]

Red wine is a symbolism of Christ's blood, and Christ said he wouldn't partake of it again until the 2nd Coming

Matt. 26: 26-29

26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.


Here's the LDS version.

D&C 27

2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins.

3 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies;

4 Wherefore, you shall partake of none except it is made anew among you; yea, in this my Father’s kingdom which shall be built up on the earth.

5 Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim;

 

[Gameface]

Many believe that the wine Jesus drank was not an alcoholic beverage but simply the juice of grapes, or other fruits. Stewed fruit drinks like compote, sherbet or lemonade which are common drinks consumed with food in Middle East.

If you were to squash grapes and place the juice in a container at room temp you would soon have wine. Maybe a pretty terrible tasting wine, but it would have alcohol in it. Wild yeast are everywhere, especially on the skin of fruit. Without pasteurizing the juice and keeping it refrigerated in a container that had been sanitized the yeast would have gone to work. In Jesus' day they didn't know what yeast were. They didn't know what pasteurization was. They didn't have refrigeration. If any amount of grape juice was stored for any significant amount of time it would have either gone bad due to a bacterial infection or it would turn to wine as the yeast went to work. Yeast quickly edge out bacteria in surgery, slightly acidic liquids. Once the alcohol level increases the yeast have yet another defense against their mortal foe.

Beer and wine both probably occurred naturally or by accident. Back in the day it would have been difficult to NOT make grape juice into an alcoholic beverage. Any grape juice consumed would have had to have been consumed when it was very freshly produced and I imagine would have been quite the luxury. Wine with alcohol would by far be the predominate drink, would have been easy to preserve, easy to store, easy to transport. It may have been just a few percent alcohol, but it most likely had alcohol in it to some extent.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

If you were to squash grapes and place the juice in a container at room temp you would soon have wine. Maybe a pretty terrible tasting wine, but it would have alcohol in it. Wild yeast are everywhere, especially on the skin of fruit. Without pasteurizing the juice and keeping it refrigerated in a container that had been sanitized the yeast would have gone to work. In Jesus' day they didn't know what yeast were. They didn't know what pasteurization was. They didn't have refrigeration. If any amount of grape juice was stored for any significant amount of time it would have either gone bad due to a bacterial infection or it would turn to wine as the yeast went to work. Yeast quickly edge out bacteria in surgery, slightly acidic liquids. Once the alcohol level increases the yeast have yet another defense against their mortal foe.

Beer and wine both probably occurred naturally or by accident. Back in the day it would have been difficult to NOT make grape juice into an alcoholic beverage. Any grape juice consumed would have had to have been consumed when it was very freshly produced and I imagine would have been quite the luxury. Wine with alcohol would by far be the predominate drink, would have been easy to preserve, easy to store, easy to transport. It may have been just a few percent alcohol, but it most likely had alcohol in it to some extent.

They also grew grapes in that area. How easy is it to get the grapes and make non alcoholic wine if you wanted to? I remember a scripture about new wine not being put in old containers. I see what you are trying to get at, but I believe there are flaws in your thinking. You are trying to make it sound like it is "inconceivable" that there would be non alcoholic wine in their day because they were cavemen. I don't think that is the case. It's okay if we disagree on this because I know how strongly you feel about your brew, and what you've learned by brewing your own stuff... and I don't care enough to really argue this much.

 

[asian_roger]

If Jesus is down to drink some wine, then I would be too.

Serious question though, if Jesus floated down from the heavens and really came back as a black person and drank the "hardest" wine in front of everyone to see (and it was truly proven to be him), What would happen to all christian-based religions and their perceptions of him? Would they be in denial?

 

[Gameface]

They also grew grapes in that area. How easy is it to get the grapes and make non alcoholic wine if you wanted to? I remember a scripture about new wine not being put in old containers. I see what you are trying to get at, but I believe there are flaws in your thinking. You are trying to make it sound like it is "inconceivable" that there would be non alcoholic wine in their day because they were cavemen. I don't think that is the case. It's okay if we disagree on this because I know how strongly you feel about your brew, and what you've learned by brewing your own stuff... and I don't care enough to really argue this much.

It is likely that people drank non-alcoholic wine. It is also possible that's all Jesus ever drank. However, non-alcoholic wine wouldn't store very well. That's one of the great (life saving) qualities of alcoholic beverages. They stay good even without refrigeration.

No pathogens can live in wine or beer (I'm talking about the variety with alcohol). None. If you were drinking wine you'd know for certain that it would not make you sick. That's arguably the primary reason wine was produced. Grapes require prime soil in prime regions. It's production was of the utmost importance to the people at that time. I doubt much of their efforts went to producing non-alcoholic wine. At the time the world was split into areas where people drank wine and others where people drank beer. If you lived in a place where good grapes could be grown you'd drink wine. If you lived in a place where the soil wasn't good enough to grow grapes you'd drink beer. Table beers at the time were around 2% alcohol. The whole family drank beer down to the littlest kids.